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Post by Ramon on May 4, 2009 13:02:10 GMT -5
Also, Scriptures doesn't teach "age of accountability". Never mentioned any age, however we must have the mental capability to know right for wrong, to understand are need for a Savior, and realize this Savior is Christ. Before God as a just righteous and Holy Judge can judge us. Now those of us that have reached this mental state whatever age that may be (ages very, there is no set age) can at that point decide not to believe it or refuse to repent then we are guilty and rightfully so. However if we do not reach this mental state because we are too young or mentally impaired ect... then it would not be just to judge us, and we know God is just. The problem is this. The belief that babies are sinless and are not guilty before God is not based on Scriptures. "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy." (1 Cor 7:14) Please Eph. 2:3. We are all by nature children of wrath, in sin, like all mankind. Infants are no exception. See also Psalm 51:5 and Job 14:1-4 which teaches that we are conceived in sin and born unclean. We are born with the effects of Ancestral Sin (or original sin) such as death, sickness, inclination to sin, etc. Since the fall of Adam and Eve, man has been separated from God since birth (Romans 5:12), and needed a savior to return him to the lovely union he or she had with God when He created everything. Since the first century, Holy Baptism was seen as a way to bring these Infants in the Church, and become Saints, washing away there uncleanness. Even John the Baptist leaped for Joy in his mothers womb (Luke 1:41-44). For most, faith is a product a reason. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by watchman on May 4, 2009 13:13:00 GMT -5
The problem is this. The belief that babies are sinless and are not guilty before God is not based on Scriptures. I do not think babies are sinless, I think God is just and that He will not judge anyone that does not know what sin is. Babies do not and cannot understand the concept of sin, salvation, or Christ. Therefore God being the just judge that He is will not judge them. Therefore there is no need for them to be baptized. |
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Post by alfie on May 4, 2009 15:58:33 GMT -5
Im sorry but a 4 year old does not know what they believe....they cant even really read, much less really know what they believe. Not being rude, but heck, i did not know or really care when i was 4. It took me till i was well into my adulthood...24 till i knew what I believed. God spoke to Samuel when he was a young boy so why can't a child of 4 understand the salvation message? The salvation message is very simple. |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on May 4, 2009 16:09:28 GMT -5
Yes i believe it is easy to drill the saving process, but does the child really understand why he is saying what he is. A 4 year old is not even in school yet, they dont know "who" they are as a person, and dont "know" what they believe. I feel like they just say it, cause that is what everyone else is doing.
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Post by teresahrc on May 4, 2009 16:54:58 GMT -5
Then why preach the gospel to the lost? If people who don't understand sin, salvation or Christ will not be judged, then what would the point be of preaching to them? Wouldn't that actually cause people to go to hell, because then they would have to "choose" whether or not to believe and presumably some would reject the message?
peace
Jesus didn't sin, but He was baptized. So why say that you must "repent" in order to be baptized? Jesus didn't need to repent. No, but His Son-ship was declared at His baptism When the Father said "This is my Son..."
The question is, should we entrust our children into God's hands, should we let God declare officially "this is my Son...this is my Daughter" or should we just let them choose on their own if they will one day follow Him? No thank you. I have already chosen that my Children will follow Christ.
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Post by teresahrc on May 4, 2009 16:57:22 GMT -5
I agree Ramon. It's the opposite.
How about this:
5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
you taught me wisdom in that secret place.
(Psalm 51)
peace
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Post by watchman on May 4, 2009 18:23:21 GMT -5
Yes i believe it is easy to drill the saving process, but does the child really understand why he is saying what he is. A 4 year old is not even in school yet, they dont know "who" they are as a person, and dont "know" what they believe. I feel like they just say it, cause that is what everyone else is doing. Actually I was not a Christian when my son asked me how to be saved. I was not drilling it into his head. He came to me and began to ask questions, and i (being brought up in church) simply gave him the answers. By the way (not to brag but maybe to explain) my son is a genius his I.Q. is 140, and to start Kindergardon you had to take a coprehension text and he scored higher than any other child ever in that schools history. Now you cannot just say he was 4 he did not understand, his fruits bares out that he knew. To this day he is still serving Christ there was most definitely a true conversion that night he came to Christ. |
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Post by watchman on May 4, 2009 18:24:52 GMT -5
Then why preach the gospel to the lost? If people who don't understand sin, salvation or Christ will not be judged, then what would the point be of preaching to them? Wouldn't that actually cause people to go to hell, because then they would have to "choose" whether or not to believe and presumably some would reject the message? peace Jesus didn't sin, but He was baptized. So why say that you must "repent" in order to be baptized? Jesus didn't need to repent. No, but His Son-ship was declared at His baptism When the Father said "This is my Son..." The question is, should we entrust our children into God's hands, should we let God declare officially "this is my Son...this is my Daughter" or should we just let them choose on their own if they will one day follow Him? No thank you. I have already chosen that my Children will follow Christ. This is absurd. To say that if babies are not judged that means we should not share the gospel with adults. One does not equate to the other. |
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Post by watchman on May 4, 2009 18:27:59 GMT -5
The question is, should we entrust our children into God's hands, should we let God declare officially "this is my Son...this is my Daughter" or should we just let them choose on their own if they will one day follow Him? No thank you. I have already chosen that my Children will follow Christ. Salvation simply does not work this way sure it would be nice, but no one will be grandmothered or grandfathered into a relationship with God. We must all one day make that choice for ourselves. No matter how badly you may want to choose for your children you simply cannot. |
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Post by Cepha on May 5, 2009 9:57:15 GMT -5
Parents baptiseing their infants, its the parents job to make this happen~ Amen! Goes back to the OT...baptism replaces circumcision. |
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Post by Cepha on May 5, 2009 10:04:28 GMT -5
What mortal sins would babies have to repent of? Can a sinless person be baptized without having to repent? Or is sin a requirement of being baptized? Well, we're not talking about pointless things, but the mandatory things like baptism (which is what Jesus commanded, right)? Nobody pointed out that computers are mandatory in going online. Or how one has to change their oil in a car every 3,000 miles. We're talking about something that is actually "in" The Bible that Jesus commanded. Unless you are born again of water and spirit, you will not go to heaven. It's it and that's that. The problem here is you seem to be arguing the need for baptism, when I agree we need to be baptized. My point is baptizing people that are not aware of what or why they are being baptized is religious ritual and nothing more. So, baptizing children according to you is a religious ritual and nothing more? It's invalid? Is that scriptural? Or opinion? And if it's invalid, why was it done by the original Christians? |
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Post by Cepha on May 5, 2009 10:10:35 GMT -5
Spend a week with my 2 year old and you might change your mind lol LOL! |
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Post by Cepha on May 5, 2009 10:28:42 GMT -5
Parents baptiseing their infants, its the parents job to make this happen~ My 12 year old son became a Christian when he was 4 by accepting Jesus as his Savior, but he was not baptized until he was 7 right after my conversion. As for my 2 year old he will be baptized as soon as he decides that he wants to accept Jesus as his own personal Savior. I believe in that wholeheartedly. In fact, I believe all children have a more intimate knowledge and closeness to God since they don't knowingly sin, thus they are closer to Him than most of us are. The World "works" God out of our children so we have to work against it to keep God in their lives and not let them be misled by The World.  |
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Post by Cepha on May 5, 2009 10:32:12 GMT -5
The problem here is that you believe one has to believe and be aware of what Holy Baptism is before it can be administered unto them, which is non-Scriptural. Following the Tradition of the Apostles and Fathers, and the authority of Scriptures (John 3:3,5, Acts 22:16, Titus 3:5-6, 1 Cor. 6:11, Gal. 3:27, 1 Peter 3:2, Roman 6, etc), the Church since the beginning has always linked Regeneration (or rebirth) with Holy Baptism. It is through the Baptismal Font, with the power of the Holy Spirit, that we are reborn unto spiritual life, our sins are washed away, and we become fully in communion with Christ and His Holy Church. Infants are given Holy Baptism for these same reasons, so they too may be one with Christ and the Church. In the Old Testament, God punished Israel because the people had not circumcised their children (Joshua 5:2-7). This was based on the parent's faith. The parents play a critical role in their child's salvation. They would circumcised there Infants in order for them to enter into the Old Covenant (Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3) without there knowledge or awareness. However, in Col 2:11-12, Holy Baptism is the new "circumcision" for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, Holy Baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant (He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults). In IC.XC, Ramon The problem is none of those scripture say that those who do not believe should be baptized. The scripture actually tell us the prerequisite for baptism is always to believe or the repent peters says Repent and then be baptized, and Philip tell the eunuch to be baptized he must first believe. That is what scripture teaches not6 what you are pushing. Knowing that baptism is for salvation, did the children of the adults who were saved accept Jesus even though they weren't in the presence of The Apostles when their parent was saved? There is no biblical evidence for this, so can what you say be believed? |
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Post by Cepha on May 5, 2009 10:36:41 GMT -5
Here are a couple of questions to those that believe that baptizing babies is not useless. #1 Will babies that do not get baptized go to Hell if they die before their time of accountability? No. They go to heaven. Babies having knowledge of Christ? You mean like "before" they learn how to crawl? LOL! And, what would babies have to repent of? (I asked that and no one answered yet!  ) No, that is proof that your questions have nothing to do with the uselessness of baptism! LOL Now, here's a question for you: Does baptism bring a person "to" Christ? |
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Post by Cepha on May 5, 2009 10:42:46 GMT -5
No it doesn't watchman. The Scriptures doesn't tell us that all must believe in order to enter into the Baptismal Font. Actually it does. Acts 8
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Philip clearly tells the Eunuch that he must believe before he could be baptized. That was to The Ethiopian...what about The Saints that were saved before Jesus was crucified? They didn't say they believed in Jesus Christ, yet they were saved when He died on The Cross, right? Or was that a special exception? |
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Post by Cepha on May 5, 2009 10:45:37 GMT -5
Also, Scriptures doesn't teach "age of accountability". Never mentioned any age, however we must have the mental capability to know right for wrong, to understand are need for a Savior, and realize this Savior is Christ. Before God as a just righteous and Holy Judge can judge us. Now those of us that have reached this mental state whatever age that may be (ages very, there is no set age) can at that point decide not to believe it or refuse to repent then we are guilty and rightfully so. However if we do not reach this mental state because we are too young or mentally impaired ect... then it would not be just to judge us, and we know God is just. So mentally disabled persons are incapable of being saved or are saved by special circumstances? Is that in The Bible? |
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Post by watchman on May 5, 2009 10:51:34 GMT -5
The problem here is you seem to be arguing the need for baptism, when I agree we need to be baptized. My point is baptizing people that are not aware of what or why they are being baptized is religious ritual and nothing more. So, baptizing children according to you is a religious ritual and nothing more? It's invalid? Is that scriptural? Or opinion? And if it's invalid, why was it done by the original Christians? Yes it is scriptural to say infant baptism is invalid, because Philip tells the Eunuch that belief in Christ must precede baptism. I do not see anywhere in Scripture that the original Christians baptized infants. |
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Post by watchman on May 5, 2009 10:53:02 GMT -5
Never mentioned any age, however we must have the mental capability to know right for wrong, to understand are need for a Savior, and realize this Savior is Christ. Before God as a just righteous and Holy Judge can judge us. Now those of us that have reached this mental state whatever age that may be (ages very, there is no set age) can at that point decide not to believe it or refuse to repent then we are guilty and rightfully so. However if we do not reach this mental state because we are too young or mentally impaired ect... then it would not be just to judge us, and we know God is just. So mentally disabled persons are incapable of being saved or are saved by special circumstances? Is that in The Bible? Does the bible say God is just? Is it just to judge someone that has no idea what they have done or is doing? |
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Post by watchman on May 5, 2009 10:55:12 GMT -5
Here are a couple of questions to those that believe that baptizing babies is not useless. #1 Will babies that do not get baptized go to Hell if they die before their time of accountability? No. They go to heaven. Babies having knowledge of Christ? You mean like "before" they learn how to crawl? LOL! And, what would babies have to repent of? (I asked that and no one answered yet! ) No, that is proof that your questions have nothing to do with the uselessness of baptism! LOL Now, here's a question for you: Does baptism bring a person "to" Christ? No it doesn't |
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