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Post by Cepha on May 5, 2009 10:58:18 GMT -5
The problem is this. The belief that babies are sinless and are not guilty before God is not based on Scriptures. I do not think babies are sinless, I think God is just and that He will not judge anyone that does not know what sin is. Babies do not and cannot understand the concept of sin, salvation, or Christ. Therefore God being the just judge that He is will not judge them. Therefore there is no need for them to be baptized. Do you believe that a person being baptized is brought to Christ?
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Post by watchman on May 5, 2009 11:01:36 GMT -5
I do not think babies are sinless, I think God is just and that He will not judge anyone that does not know what sin is. Babies do not and cannot understand the concept of sin, salvation, or Christ. Therefore God being the just judge that He is will not judge them. Therefore there is no need for them to be baptized. Do you believe that a person being baptized is brought to Christ? I think you should have already been brought to Christ before you are baptized. Peter said in Acts 2:38 Repent, and be baptized. We are to repent (that brings us to Christ) and then be baptized.
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Post by Cepha on May 5, 2009 11:33:20 GMT -5
Yes i believe it is easy to drill the saving process, but does the child really understand why he is saying what he is. A 4 year old is not even in school yet, they dont know "who" they are as a person, and dont "know" what they believe. I feel like they just say it, cause that is what everyone else is doing. Actually I was not a Christian when my son asked me how to be saved. I was not drilling it into his head. He came to me and began to ask questions, and i (being brought up in church) simply gave him the answers. By the way (not to brag but maybe to explain) my son is a genius his I.Q. is 140, and to start Kindergardon you had to take a coprehension text and he scored higher than any other child ever in that schools history. Now you cannot just say he was 4 he did not understand, his fruits bares out that he knew. To this day he is still serving Christ there was most definitely a true conversion that night he came to Christ. Your son=God's pencil.
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Post by Cepha on May 5, 2009 11:35:21 GMT -5
The question is, should we entrust our children into God's hands, should we let God declare officially "this is my Son...this is my Daughter" or should we just let them choose on their own if they will one day follow Him? No thank you. I have already chosen that my Children will follow Christ. Salvation simply does not work this way sure it would be nice, but no one will be grandmothered or grandfathered into a relationship with God. We must all one day make that choice for ourselves. No matter how badly you may want to choose for your children you simply cannot. But children have been "grandfathered" into salvation. Remember when the Roman was saved and his family at home was also saved because of his salvation (even though they werent present)? Or what about the unbelieving spouses being saved becasue of the believing spouse?
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Post by Cepha on May 5, 2009 11:46:36 GMT -5
So, baptizing children according to you is a religious ritual and nothing more? It's invalid? Is that scriptural? Or opinion? And if it's invalid, why was it done by the original Christians? Yes it is scriptural to say infant baptism is invalid, because Philip tells the Eunuch that belief in Christ must precede baptism. I do not see anywhere in Scripture that the original Christians baptized infants. I never see "infants" mentioned in that verse. And, what about the children who were saved by their father's faith when he was saved, but they weren't around? The Roman? Did his children believe even though they weren't there?
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Post by Cepha on May 5, 2009 11:47:26 GMT -5
Does the bible say God is just? Is it just to judge someone that has no idea what they have done or is doing? To decide "what" is just in God's eyes requires "personal interpretion" Watchman.
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Post by Cepha on May 5, 2009 11:49:28 GMT -5
I guess Jesus was lieing when He said Baptism was essential in salvation then (as that was Jesus' mission...salvation). If Baptism doesn't bring one to Christ, why is it essential? How can a Baptized person get to God The Father if they are not automatically brought to Christ? What "else" do they have to do?
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Post by Cepha on May 5, 2009 11:51:17 GMT -5
Do you believe that a person being baptized is brought to Christ? I think you should have already been brought to Christ before you are baptized. Peter said in Acts 2:38 Repent, and be baptized. We are to repent (that brings us to Christ) and then be baptized. Again, babies don't have to repent? Or do they get a special dispensation? If so, is this "in" scripture? Or personally interpretated from the text somehow? And they're saved (the result of their parent's baptism as told in Scripture), right?
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Post by watchman on May 5, 2009 13:27:37 GMT -5
Does the bible say God is just? Is it just to judge someone that has no idea what they have done or is doing? To decide "what" is just in God's eyes requires "personal interpretion" Watchman. God is just so everything He does is just, but they are not just because God did them, they are just because they are just. God would not do anything thing that is unjust. Judging babies or mentally ill people is not just.
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Post by watchman on May 5, 2009 13:28:44 GMT -5
I guess Jesus was lieing when He said Baptism was essential in salvation then (as that was Jesus' mission...salvation). If Baptism doesn't bring one to Christ, why is it essential? How can a Baptized person get to God The Father if they are not automatically brought to Christ? What "else" do they have to do? They must first repent.
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Post by watchman on May 5, 2009 13:29:41 GMT -5
I think you should have already been brought to Christ before you are baptized. Peter said in Acts 2:38 Repent, and be baptized. We are to repent (that brings us to Christ) and then be baptized. Again, babies don't have to repent? Or do they get a special dispensation? If so, is this "in" scripture? Or personally interpretated from the text somehow? And they're saved (the result of their parent's baptism as told in Scripture), right? If they need not repent then they need not be baptized either.
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Post by Cepha on May 6, 2009 9:19:35 GMT -5
To decide "what" is just in God's eyes requires "personal interpretion" Watchman. God is just so everything He does is just, but they are not just because God did them, they are just because they are just. God would not do anything thing that is unjust. Judging babies or mentally ill people is not just. You know that God doesn't judge them? Is this a biblically founded belief? Or is it your own belief? Again, just saying that God is just doesn't prove that He doesn't judge children or the mentally ill. I'm looking for your proof of this belief.
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Post by Cepha on May 6, 2009 9:20:33 GMT -5
I guess Jesus was lieing when He said Baptism was essential in salvation then (as that was Jesus' mission...salvation). If Baptism doesn't bring one to Christ, why is it essential? How can a Baptized person get to God The Father if they are not automatically brought to Christ? What "else" do they have to do? They must first repent. Did the Saints that rose out of their graves repent when they were born again when Jesus died on The Cross?
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Post by Cepha on May 6, 2009 9:22:10 GMT -5
If they need not repent then they need not be baptized either. Did Jesus say that it had to be in that order? That they had to repent first? And, did Jesus say that we "don't" have to be baptized? I know for a fact that Jesus said that we "must" be baptized in water and spirit, but I never read that He said that we "don't" have to be baptized. Is this based on scripture?
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Post by watchman on May 6, 2009 11:58:32 GMT -5
God is just so everything He does is just, but they are not just because God did them, they are just because they are just. God would not do anything thing that is unjust. Judging babies or mentally ill people is not just. You know that God doesn't judge them? Is this a biblically founded belief? Or is it your own belief? Again, just saying that God is just doesn't prove that He doesn't judge children or the mentally ill. I'm looking for your proof of this belief. You know that God doesn't judge them? YES Is this a biblically founded belief? YES Or is it your own belief? YES
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Post by watchman on May 6, 2009 12:00:48 GMT -5
If they need not repent then they need not be baptized either. Did Jesus say that it had to be in that order? That they had to repent first? And, did Jesus say that we "don't" have to be baptized? I know for a fact that Jesus said that we "must" be baptized in water and spirit, but I never read that He said that we "don't" have to be baptized. Is this based on scripture? Yes Jesus did say that you must believe first, and yes it is biblical Matthew 16:16 ;D
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Post by Cepha on May 6, 2009 12:26:49 GMT -5
You know that God doesn't judge them? YES Is this a biblically founded belief? YES Scripture?
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Post by Cepha on May 6, 2009 12:33:49 GMT -5
Did Jesus say that it had to be in that order? That they had to repent first? And, did Jesus say that we "don't" have to be baptized? I know for a fact that Jesus said that we "must" be baptized in water and spirit, but I never read that He said that we "don't" have to be baptized. Is this based on scripture? Yes Jesus did say that you must believe first, and yes it is biblical Matthew 16:16 ;D I'm sorry, but that verse you quoted doesn't prove show Jesus saying that you have to believe first. Matthew 16:16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."How does Peter calling Him The Son of God equal forcibly believing in order to be saved? Am I missing something or did you misquote it?
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Post by watchman on May 6, 2009 12:35:46 GMT -5
Yes Jesus did say that you must believe first, and yes it is biblical Matthew 16:16 ;D I'm sorry, but that verse you quoted doesn't prove show Jesus saying that you have to believe first. Matthew 16:16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."How does Peter calling Him The Son of God equal forcibly believing in order to be saved? Am I missing something or did you misquote it? Sorry Mark 16:16
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Post by watchman on May 6, 2009 12:37:19 GMT -5
You know that God doesn't judge them? YES Is this a biblically founded belief? YES Scripture? You need scripture that tell you #1 that God is just and or #2 that judging infants or the mentally ill to hell is unjust? Do you really need those scripture, because if need be I will find them, but I would assume that is something all would agree on
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