|
|
Post by cradlecathlic27 on May 28, 2009 20:23:57 GMT -5
OK, let the marcie bashing begin  I use BC and dont see a problem with it. Im totally against abortion and the Plan B pill which is CRAZY. Now i will take the beating... |
|
|
|
Post by emily445455 on May 28, 2009 20:43:48 GMT -5
Marcie, I also use birth control. I was on the pill from 16 up until last month (hubby and I want to start a family soon! yay!!!) and we also used and use other forms. I would love to be one of those women who has total faith and trust that God will bless her with children when He knows she is ready with the number of children that she is able to handle. But, sadly, I do not have that kind of trust...I'm sorry God  Even if I would have gotten off of it when I got Saved at 17...I probably would have became pregnant shortly afterwards....in nooo way was I ready for a child then. |
|
|
|
Post by cradlecathlic27 on May 28, 2009 20:54:40 GMT -5
Yeah i hear ya. I would rather bring a child into the world when im financially ready. My first was an accident but would not trade him for nothing!
|
|
|
|
Post by Ramon on May 28, 2009 22:28:18 GMT -5
You right, this is a very controversial topic! Opinions about contraception have varied in the Orthodox Church (While some local churches have issued official statements on this issue, it is not an issue that has been clearly defined by the entire Church). Thereby, one should always consult there Spiritual Father (Priest) for guidance in this matter....... The practice of artificial birth control, "the pill," condoms, or any other kind of device, is actually condemned by some Orthodox Church (at least in past times) Churches. The Church of Greece, for example, in 1937 issued a special encyclical just for this purpose, to condemn birth control. Likewise, the Romanian and Russian Churches, to name just two others among many, have more than once, in former times, spoken out against this practice. It is only in recent times, only in the generation since World War II, that some local Churches (the Greek Archdiocese in this country, for example) have begun to teach that it "might" be all right to practice birth control in certain circumstances, as long as this is discussed with the priest beforehand and has his agreement. It seem that now "birth control" is not looked upon as evil by many, and the general rule on birth control has been changed, and permission is no longer needed as far as I been told. But there are some Orthodox, and Orthodox Churches (jurisdictions) that do condemn Birth Control pills. The Church does permit the use of certain natural methods for avoiding conception, but these methods may not be used without the knowledge and blessing of the priest, and only if the physical and moral well-being of the family demands it. What are the methods approve of the Church? 1. Total abstinence. In very pious families this is not at all as uncommon, either today or yesterday, as one might think. We Orthodox have no fear of celibacy, and no silly ideas about how we will not be fulfilled or happy if we cease to have sexual activity with our spouse. 2. A limitation on sexual relations. This of course already happens with the Orthodox couple that sincerely tries to observe fully all of the fast days and fasting periods of the year. 3. Finally, the Church allows the use of the so-called "rhythm" or the more recently developed Natural Family Planning method, about which ample information is available today. A woman can track her cycle via temperature; monitor certain female secretions; track her mentrual cycle; as well as other scientific techniques and methods to effectively avoid engaging the marital act during fertile periods. It is interesting to note that the majority of the Fathers believed that sexual intercourse is solely and entirely for the purpose of procreation. But then again few of the Fathers believed sexual activity has a broader purpose than solely procreative, namely that within the bond of holy marriage it can serve as a unifying expression and bond of love between husband and wife. In this view, contraception might be seen as permissible solely within the marriage union. This is what a article from my jurisdiction (Orthodox Church in America) have to said about this issue: "The control of the conception of a child by any means is also condemned by the Church if it means the lack of fulfillment in the family, the hatred of children, the fear of responsibility, the desire for sexual pleasure as purely fleshly, lustful satisfaction, etc. Again, however, married people practicing birth control are not necessarily deprived of Holy Communion, if in conscience before God and with the blessing of their spiritual father, they are convinced that their motives are not entirely unworthy. Here again, however, such a couple cannot pretend to justify themselves in the light of the absolute perfection of the Kingdom of God" ( www.oca.org/QA.asp?ID=147&SID=3) Personally, I agree with this. In IC.XC, Ramon |
|
|
|
Post by Ramon on May 28, 2009 22:30:03 GMT -5
Here is a lengthy quote from St John Chrysostom on marriage and sexuality. I think it is well worth the time it takes to read it carefully. Note, for the present discussion, how he treats of the issue of the sexual union for those couples that cannot bear children.
``````````````````````````````````
“What? is marriage a theater? It is a mystery and a type of a mighty thing; and even if thou reverence not it, reverence that whose type it is. "This mystery," saith he, "is great, but I speak in regard of Christ and of the Church." (Eph. v. 32.) It is a type of the Church, and of Christ…They come, about to be made one body. See again a mystery of love! If the two become not one, so long as they continue two, they make not many, but when they are come into oneness, they then make many. What do we learn from this? That great is the power of union. The wise counsel of God at the beginning divided the one into two; and being desirous of showing that even after division it remaineth still one, He suffered not that the one should be of itself enough for procreation. For he is not one who is not yet [united] but the half of one; and it is evident from this, that he begetteth no offspring, as was the case also beforetime. Seest thou the mystery of marriage? He made of one, one; and again, having made these two, one, He so maketh one, so that now also man is produced of one. For man and wife are not two men, but one Man…Moreover, from the very fashioning of her body, one may see that they are one, for she was made from his side, and they are, as it were, two halves….And how become they one flesh? As if thou shouldest take away the purest part of gold, and mingle it with other gold; so in truth here also the woman as it were receiving the richest part fused by pleasure, nourisheth it and cherisheth it, and withal contributing her own share, restoreth it back a Man. And the child is a sort of bridge, so that the three become one flesh, the child connecting, on either side, each to other. For like as two cities, which a river divides throughout, become one, if a bridge connect them on both sides, so is it in this case; and yet more, when the very bridge in this case is formed of the substance of each. As the body and the head are one body; for they are divided by the neck; but not divided more than connected, for it, lying between them brings together each with the other…What then? when there is no child, will they not be two? Nay, for their coming together hath this effect, it diffuses and commingles the bodies of both. And as one who hath cast ointment into oil, hath made the whole one; so in truth is it also here. I know that many are ashamed at what is said, and the cause of this is what I spoke of, your own lasciviousness, and unchasteness. The fact of marriages being thus performed, thus depraved, hath gained the thing an ill name: for "marriage is honorable, and the bed undefiled." (Heb. xiii. 4) Why art thou ashamed of the honorable, why blushest thou at the undefiled? This is for heretics, this is for such as introduce harlots thither. For this cause I am desirous of having it thoroughly purified, so as to bring it back again to its proper nobleness, so as to stop the mouths of the heretics. The gift of God is insulted, the root of our generation; for about that root there is much dung and filth. This then let us cleanse away by our discourse. Endure then a little while, for he that holdeth filth must endure the stench. I wish to show you that ye ought not to be ashamed at these things, but at those which ye do; but thou, passing by all shame at those, art ashamed at these; surely then thou condemnest God who hath thus decreed….Shall I tell how marriage is also a mystery of the Church? As Christ came into the Church, and she was made of him, and he united with her in a spiritual intercourse, "for," saith one, "I have espoused you to one husband, a pure virgin." (2 Cor. xi. 2.) And that we are of Him, he saith, of His members, "and of His flesh." Thinking then on all these things, let us not cast shame upon so great a mystery. Marriage is a type of the presence of Christ….If thou drive away all these things [Satanic reverie at the wedding feast], even Christ will come to such a marriage, and Christ being present, the choir of Angels is present also. If thou wilt, He will even now work miracles as He did then; He will make even now the water, wine (John ii.); and what is much more wonderful, He will convert this unstable and dissolving pleasure, this cold desire, and change it into the spiritual. This is to make of water, wine.”
--St John Chrysostom, Homily 12 on Colossians
Hence, the Patristic witness is not unanimous in its presentation of sexual intercourse as intended purely for procreative.
However, Saint John Chrysostom declares that contraception "stand(s)" with heretics and as doing the work of "murderers" (On Galations 5, PG 61:668-669) & (Homily 62 on Matthew 19, PG 58:599). In addition to Saint John's reference to contraception as "a murder before birth," he speaks forcefully against contraception in Homily 24 on the Epistle to the Romans.
In IC.XC,
Ramon
|
|
|
|
Post by watchman on May 28, 2009 22:43:16 GMT -5
Marcie, I also use birth control. I was on the pill from 16 up until last month (hubby and I want to start a family soon! yay!!!) and we also used and use other forms. I would love to be one of those women who has total faith and trust that God will bless her with children when He knows she is ready with the number of children that she is able to handle. But, sadly, I do not have that kind of trust...I'm sorry God Even if I would have gotten off of it when I got Saved at 17...I probably would have became pregnant shortly afterwards....in nooo way was I ready for a child then. Were you married at 17? Premarital sex is not even debatable is it? |
|
|
|
Post by emily445455 on May 28, 2009 22:45:12 GMT -5
No I was married at 20.
|
|
|
|
Post by watchman on May 28, 2009 23:04:08 GMT -5
Yet you might have gotten pregnant at 17? and you were a Christian? How does that work? |
|
|
|
Post by Ramon on May 28, 2009 23:19:05 GMT -5
Yet you might have gotten pregnant at 17? and you were a Christian? How does that work? And why are you asking this? If she would have gotten pregnant at 17 outside of marriage then she would have sin and she would have needed to repent and ask God for forgiveness. We all make mistakes. We all sin. We all need God's forgiveness and mercy each day. In IC.XC, Ramon |
|
|
|
Post by emily445455 on May 29, 2009 9:18:33 GMT -5
Joey, you can probably connect the dots  |
|
|
|
Post by Ramon on May 29, 2009 10:14:16 GMT -5
What does the Roman Catholic Church teach about this? I thought the RCC condemn birth control pills, yet CradleCatholic find nothing wrong with it .........  There have been Roman Popes, such as Pius XI (Casti Connubii), Paul V, Paul VI (Humanae Vitae, 1968), John Paul II (Familiaris Consortio, 1981), Benedict XVI, and others who have spoke out against Birth Control. As far I know, the Roman Church has always been against Birth Control (artificial birth control that is) Catechism of the Catholic Church: "[E]very action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible is intrinsically evil" (CCC 2370). "Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means . . . for example, direct sterilization or contraception" (CCC 2399). Can any Catholic shine some light on this? When I was in my Senior Year in a Catholic High School, my Religion teacher told us that the Catholic Church is opposed only to birth control by artificial means, but Natural Family Planning (etc) is allow. In IC.XC, Ramon |
|
|
|
Post by cradlecathlic27 on May 29, 2009 10:25:54 GMT -5
The church may teach against it...but i still take them. I actually never learned that when i was in cyo or from anyone at the church i learned that on here...
But i have a question... my obgyn is in a st. elizabeth hospital and they prescribe it to me. Maybe they are not totally affiliated with the hospital, but they only deliver babies at st. e's.
|
|
|
|
Post by watchman on May 29, 2009 10:56:03 GMT -5
Yet you might have gotten pregnant at 17? and you were a Christian? How does that work? And why are you asking this? If she would have gotten pregnant at 17 outside of marriage then she would have sin and she would have needed to repent and ask God for forgiveness. We all make mistakes. We all sin. We all need God's forgiveness and mercy each day. In IC.XC, Ramon I agree, but if she was having sex regularly enough to that she knows she would have got pregnant if not using birth control then there does not seem to be any repentance or remission involved. |
|
|
|
Post by Ramon on May 29, 2009 10:58:46 GMT -5
The church may teach against it...but i still take them. That strange....a Catholic that does not follow what her Church teaches. I am not trying to bash you cradlecatholic. I just find it strange that some Catholics find nothing wrong in taking Birth Control pills, whereas the Roman Church has condemn it many times, as far as I know........Sounds like a cafeteria Catholic to me! ;D Something do not smell right here....... ;D In IC.XC, Ramon |
|
|
|
Post by watchman on May 29, 2009 10:58:53 GMT -5
Joey, you can probably connect the dots Yeah, I can, I guess those dots lead back to your OSAS live as I want God will turn a blind eye to my sin belief. |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on May 29, 2009 11:07:17 GMT -5
Oh, I hate to bring up such a controversial topic... Yeah right! Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone would dare to defend the use of birth control for Christians. I was reading the other day that pretty much 100% of all Christians--Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic, "non-affilited" etc. were totally against birth control until the "Lambeth" conference or something like that. Now it is almost promoted in some churches. What's up with that? I'm not here to condemn anyone if they use birth control (don't ask, don't tell ok) but I would rather discuss the use of birth control for Christians. Birth control is 100% wrong. Period. It, like divorce and other things has been accepted and promoted by some Christian groups, but The Catholic Church is and has always been and will always be against it because it's just plain wrong. Like abortion, on this, there can be no movement. |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on May 29, 2009 11:10:35 GMT -5
OK, let the marcie bashing begin I use BC and dont see a problem with it. Im totally against abortion and the Plan B pill which is CRAZY. Now i will take the beating... What about natural birth planning for you that is just about equally as effective as artificial birth control and is approved by The Church? (No bashing from me...I'm no saint) |
|
|
|
Post by Ramon on May 29, 2009 11:11:47 GMT -5
It, like divorce and other things has been accepted and promoted by some Christian groups, but The Catholic Church is and has always been and will always be against it because it's just plain wrong. Tell that to those Catholics who find nothing wrong in Birth Control and refuse to abide what the Roman Church has declared....... ;D Not bashing anyone, just find this very strange....... In IC.XC, Ramon |
|
|
|
Post by watchman on May 29, 2009 11:16:44 GMT -5
I personally dont give 2 shits who has the most abortions in this country...it should not be legal at all! The more you talk cepha the more you sound racist! Really Is it really necessary, or appropriate, to curse? My virgin ears.  She's just onry! LOL! I view sinning as being more serious than being ornery. This is your reaction to CC cursing, but you think premarital sex is O.K. that kind of a double standard don't ya think? |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on May 29, 2009 11:17:10 GMT -5
Yet you might have gotten pregnant at 17? and you were a Christian? How does that work? It works like this...she did it. End of story. The difference between a Christian and non-Christians is that the Christian "knows" they are sinners and need Christ. Whatever she did or didn't do is not for you or I to judge. I think that should be left alone. I smell judgement in your question to her... John 85Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.  |
|
There have been Roman Popes, such as Pius XI (Casti Connubii), Paul V, Paul VI (Humanae Vitae, 1968), John Paul II (Familiaris Consortio, 1981), Benedict XVI, and others who have spoke out against Birth Control. As far I know, the Roman Church has always been against Birth Control (artificial birth control that is)
