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Post by alfie on Jun 20, 2009 11:40:20 GMT -5
I don't wear a cross any more because it bothers me to do so. I read that the Romans crucified over 500,000 people.... so why wear a cross?
Some protestant churches don't have any crosses in their churches but mine has a large one hanging over the altar and one small one sitting on the altar. Neither cross shows Jesus hanging on them.
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 20, 2009 11:45:26 GMT -5
My church has one on the front of the buliding kind of above the enterance and the pulpit stand thing is in the shape of a cross.
We only have them to show the public that we are a Christian church....I guess people thought we were a JW church or something because of the building style.
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Jun 20, 2009 14:10:58 GMT -5
If He died and that was it.....how does that make His death important, Marcie? I am not into glorifying the dead Jesus, but the Risen One. He didnt just die...he offered himself on the stake for US. Then was risen from the dead. I think the whole event is SPECIAL! |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Jun 20, 2009 14:13:10 GMT -5
I don't wear a cross any more because it bothers me to do so. I read that the Romans crucified over 500,000 people.... so why wear a cross? Some protestant churches don't have any crosses in their churches but mine has a large one hanging over the altar and one small one sitting on the altar. Neither cross shows Jesus hanging on them. The cross is a reminder...and if that bothers you then you have issues... |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 20, 2009 22:32:31 GMT -5
"For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified."
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 20, 2009 22:38:52 GMT -5
O sacred Head, now wounded,
with grief and shame weighed down,
now scornfully surrounded
with thorns, thine only crown:
how pale thou art with anguish,
with sore abuse and scorn!
How does that visage languish
which once was bright as morn!
2. What thou, my Lord, has suffered
was all for sinners' gain;
mine, mine was the transgression,
but thine the deadly pain.
Lo, here I fall, my Savior!
'Tis I deserve thy place;
look on me with thy favor,
vouchsafe to me thy grace.
3. What language shall I borrow
to thank thee, dearest friend,
for this thy dying sorrow,
thy pity without end?
O make me thine forever;
and should I fainting be,
Lord, let me never, never
outlive my love for thee.
Alfie, don't you want to be crucified with Christ? I do. We suffer with Him every day.
I will meditate on, cherish, adore, worship every moment, every second, every single moment of our Savior's Passion. And also His resurrection.
"Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory."
Romans 8:17
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Post by Ramon on Jun 21, 2009 14:51:12 GMT -5
I read that the Romans crucified over 500,000 people.... so why wear a cross? So why does your church have two images of crosses (material) inside?  Something don't smell right here.......  Even you can agree that us Christians see the cross in a different manner....... In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 22, 2009 8:16:42 GMT -5
I have no idea what she looked like. Just like people have no idea what Jesus looks like. Holy Icons are there to be a Kodak pictures. Holy Icons are not meant to be a reality picture, showing the exactness of the person or event portray in the Icon. I also don't pray to my pictures of family members. No true Christian does. Latin/Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians do not pray to the pictures. In IC.XC, Ramon You know something Ramon, don't they sound just like the oppressive sectors of The Pharisees that tried to keep people from reading for themselves? It's just like them. They took their Old Testament Canon and rejected The Christian Old Testament Canon and have also adopted their ways. It's like they don't want people to be close to God. GOD Himself had physical idols in His Temple and commanded that His Temple be made as such. Why argue with God? I just don't get it. The scripture goes (vooooop!) right over their head like a 747. The scripture says that "false" idols are not to be worshipped. Idols of Saints are not false idols and are NOT worshipped either. But this is just a manufactured objection to justify being a denominational Christian. I've never, I repeat, I've never heard an Anti-Catholic say that they were their faith because of the goodness in their religion. It's always "because The Catholic Church does this or teaches that...", but never because "my church does this or teaches that". I've heard nuetral Non-Catholic Christians (who weren't Anti-Catholic) say beautiful things about their churches and gave valid reasons for their faith in their repsective faith. I love and respect that. But where there is malice, there cannot be love and where there is no love, there cannot be Christ. Amen? |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 22, 2009 8:20:59 GMT -5
Ramon, you still didn't tell me why your church eliminated the second commandment. No such thing occured. The KJV re-ordered them. You cannot hold the KJV as the standard since The Holy Bible existed "before" it did and you have to remember, Christians don't use The Pharisees version of The Old Testament, we use the Chrisitian version of it. That is the one you should be using (not the unbelieving Jews' version...remember, they not only rejected Jesus Christ, but crucified Him. Why follow their rules? Jesus didn't.). Most common Protestant listing: Thou shalt have no other gods before me Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy Honour thy father and thy mother Thou shalt not kill Thou shalt not commit adultery Thou shalt not steal Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour Thou shalt not covet Latin Catholic listing: Thou shalt not have other gods besides Me Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain Remember to keep holy the Lord’s day Honor thy father and thy mother Thou shalt not murder Thou shalt not commit adultery Thou shalt not steal Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods So what the heck? What did happen to the commandment about graven images in the Catholic listing? Did the Church just "drop" a commandment? Um, no. The Old Testament was around long before the time of the Apostles, and the Decalogue, which is found in three different places in the Bible (Exodus 20 and Exodous 34 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21), has not been changed by the Catholic Church. Chapter and verse divisions are a medieval invention, however, and numbering systems of the Ten Words (Commandments), the manner in which they are grouped, and the "short-hand" used for them, vary among various religious groups. Exodus 20 is the version most often referred to when one speaks of the Ten Commandments, so it will be our reference point here. Here's how the relevant portion of Exodus 20 reads: 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 13 Thou shalt not kill. 1 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal. 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. So we have 16 verses and Ten Commandments (this we know because of Exodus 34:28 and Deuteronomy 4:13 which speak of the "Ten Words" of God). How to group these verses and Commands? Here's how different groups have handled this: www.fisheaters.com/10commandments.html |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 22, 2009 8:52:18 GMT -5
Ramon, you still didn't tell me why your church eliminated the second commandment. We didn't. What God commanded them not to do was to make images and worship them as Idols. When the Hebrews translated the Bible into Greek (The Septuagint, highly favored by Christ and the Holy Apostles), they translated "graven images" simply as "eidoloi", i.e. "idols." Furthermore the Hebrew word "pesel" is never used in reference to any of the images in the Temple. So clearly the reference here is to pagan images rather than images in general. Holy Icons and Statues was a very important part of Judaism. Nothing in Scriptures forbid Holy Icons and Statues. In fact, Holy Icons and Statues goes back to the Old Testament, and since Christianity is a extension of Judaism, the Early Church since the Apostolic Era, for the most part, did not mind Holy Icons. Alfie, you still didn't tell me why I can find images of crosses (etc) in a Methodist Church, and why I saw a Icon of a event in the Holy Scriptures in one Methodist Church (like you will see in a Orthodox Church). Seems your people don't mind. Perhaps only you do........ Alfie, Holy Icons has its roots in the Holy Scriptures. You should reread my last post and ponder my words. In IC.XC, Ramon They use the "Christless" Cross. The Cross without Christ is nothing! Just two pieces of wood! Christ makes The Cross (not the other way around! They might as well be representing the thieves on the crosses next to Jesus or all the other people who were crucified. It's not the act of crucification (which is what the cross ALONE symbolizes) that is holy, but it is Jesus ON that cross that is makes HIS Cross holy. While I can have a Christless cross, I will never reject the Crucified Christ! It wasn't in his ressurection that we gained eternal life! It was in His DEATH that the sacrifice was made for us! But some people want to "forget" that He suffered for us. Not us...we will never forget! Nor, will we ever shy away from the image of His sacrifice for us! What did Jesus say about this? John 15-13"There is no greater love than this,
That a person sacrifices himself for his kinsmen." |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 22, 2009 8:56:14 GMT -5
Ok, just to let you know em....i have crosses hung in my house with Jesus on them....but I have NEVER, sat there and prayed while looking at it. I think that people have drilled into your head that we "worship" statues and pictures, which is simply not true. In yalls sunday school books to teach your sunday school kids there are pictures of Jesus, Joeseph, Mary and so on. Now do i think yall worship the pictures...NO. Common sense sweety! They attack Christian Tradition because it is Satanic Propaganda. If Satan could remove them from holy veneration, then He can keep us divided. The thing is that The Bible is FULL of "sacramentals" (holy water, annointing oil, idols, satues, incense, prayer cloths, etc...). They just ignore allllllllll of that. They have to...these are all both Catholic AND Biblical traditions. So, they have to somehow, "undo" scripture in order to "undo" The Church. But what does it say when "Bible Believing" Christians don't "believe" certain parts of The Bible because Catholics are the only ones who are still practicing those traditions? It says they're not so "believing" after all. They believe in Protestantism "over" scripture. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 22, 2009 9:52:35 GMT -5
That's another thing I don't get....always in Catholic churches I see the dead Jesus, never the alive One. Thats crap! My church has the risen Jesus on the cross in the front and the back of the church. Very beautiful! LOL! A little strong language, but true none the less! We have Jesus alllll over the Church! Even the Baby Jesus! www.metacafe.com/watch/1177116/baby_jesus_prayer_in_talladega_nights/Fact is, I've seen Protestant churches forbid any images of holy people, but they'll have angels and pictures of their church's founders and even statues of their church's founder(s)! But none of The Saints? Or of Jesus?  |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 22, 2009 9:53:30 GMT -5
Whenever I see a Catholic's home, there are dead Jesus's all over the place, as well as the Catholic church I went to once. Yes! The image of Christ's sacrifice for us! So that we will always remember! It is in that moment that we were saved! (we weren't saved by two pieces of plain wood) |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 22, 2009 9:54:06 GMT -5
Heather, I like to focus on the Living Christ, not the dead one. His death was significant...but it wasn't special...all humans die. His DEATH WASNT SPECIAL? Ok....His death was for us, all of us. His death is a core belief in your salvation...but is was not special? That is ludicrous. I cannot believe i just read that.... It's like the sacrifice that Jesus made doesn't count.  |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 22, 2009 12:40:36 GMT -5
I guess no one understands what I am trying to say...oh well. Jesus's sacrifice was very important and it definilty "counts"....but if it ended there, it's nothing. It's the risen Jesus that makes it all worth while...if He didn't come back, it would have just been another dead man.
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 22, 2009 13:51:15 GMT -5
But to me that's like saying that you didn't love your fiance until you actually got married.
Everything about Jesus life on earth was significant. Especially His passion, death and resurrection. Read all the beautiful prophecies in the Old Testament. Most of them are about the suffering Savior.
What about all the beautiful Protestant (and Catholic) hymns about Jesus' suffering? Of course the way He died was special. No other man was God. No other man ever died sinless. Not only that, but every single aspect of His suffering was for you and me and the whole world.
I mean, that's like renting some kind of fairy tale movie and only watching the happy ending. When you watch the whole thing, that's when the ending means so much more.
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Post by Ramon on Jun 22, 2009 13:57:20 GMT -5
But to me that's like saying that you didn't love your fiance until you actually got married. Everything about Jesus life on earth was significant. Especially His passion, death and resurrection. Read all the beautiful prophecies in the Old Testament. Most of them are about the suffering Savior. What about all the beautiful Protestant (and Catholic) hymns about Jesus' suffering? Of course the way He died was special. No other man was God. No other man ever died sinless. Not only that, but every single aspect of His suffering was for you and me and the whole world. I mean, that's like renting some kind of fairy tale movie and only watching the happy ending. When you watch the whole thing, that's when the ending means so much more. Amen! Everything about Jesus' life was significant. Yes, we Orthodox place more emphases on his Holy Resurrection, but his death was equally important. Jesus Christ, the God-Man, was given up, or rather when he gave himself up (as we say in our Divine Liturgy) in the cross for our sake, to heal our fallen humanity. We were sick, and healed us. Jesus death was not like any other man. His death was significant because the one that was on the cross was both man and God, fully united in one Person. That is why the Early Fathers saw no heresy in saying "God suffered and died" because he really did, although not in his divinity. Let's not get into the heresy of Nestorius please! In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 22, 2009 14:18:11 GMT -5
What do you mean He didn't suffer in "his divinity" |
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Post by alfie on Jun 22, 2009 15:04:58 GMT -5
Just to make a point about the Ark of the covenant and the "Mercy Seat of God" The Mercy Seat sat on top of the Ark. At the sides (facing each other) of the Ark were the cheribum. The cheribum did not face toward the priest. When the priest sprinkled blood on the Mercy Seat or bowed before the Mercy Seat he did not look at or bow before the cheribum only the Mercy Seat. So stop bowing before statues of Mary.
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Jun 22, 2009 15:49:22 GMT -5
Ive never bowed down to anything ALFIE...GET OVER IT ALLREADY!
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Something don't smell right here....... 
