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Post by teresahrc on Jun 22, 2009 16:50:26 GMT -5
Just to make a point about the Ark of the covenant and the "Mercy Seat of God" The Mercy Seat sat on top of the Ark. At the sides (facing each other) of the Ark were the cheribum. The cheribum did not face toward the priest. When the priest sprinkled blood on the Mercy Seat or bowed before the Mercy Seat he did not look at or bow before the cheribum only the Mercy Seat. So stop bowing before statues of Mary.  Who made those cheribum? Who told them to make the cheribum? How do you know that the High Priest did not "look at or bow before the ceribum..."? If you lived back in Israel when Mary was pregnant with Jesus and you knew who was in her womb, would you refuse to worship Him because you might have to "look at or bow before" her? When you pray, do you ever get down on your knees or bow? Are you bowing down to the bed? I'm sure you aren't.
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Post by Ramon on Jun 22, 2009 19:30:00 GMT -5
 What do you mean He didn't suffer in "his divinity" Just that Heather! LOL. Remember Heather, the Holy Fathers (Saint Athanasian, Saint Cyril, Pope Saint Leo the Great, among others) always made a distinction of Jesus Christ' humanity and divinity, although they never separated them into two persons as the heretic Nestorius did. The Fathers attributed human characteristics (ie.., hunger, thirst, tiredness, grew in knowledge, death etc) to his human nature, while always proclaiming that his divine nature is impassible. He worked miracles according to the divine nature, as both Saint Athanasian and Saint Cyril taught. Humanity and divinity are hypostatically united together: the two natures exist in the one person of the Word who became flesh, a divine person (or hypostasis).The two natures exist united together "without confusion, without change, without division, without separation." (Council of Chalcedon). Instead of posting quotes from the Fathers, I will suggest you to read them personally, such as Saint Cyril' On the Unity of Jesus Christ, his letters to Nestorious, Pope Saint Leo the Great "Tomb" (letter) which was declared as authentic Orthodox teaching by the The Holy Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon. I will also suggest you read Saint John of Damascus "Exposition on the Orthodox Faith" starting at book three. Saint John of Damascus sum up the theology of the Greek Fathers, when he wrote: " The Word of God then itself endured all in the flesh, while His divine nature which alone was passionless remained void of passion. For since the one Christ, Who is a compound of divinity and humanity, and exists in divinity and humanity, truly suffered, that part which is capable of passion suffered as it was natural it should, but that part which was void of passion did not share in the suffering. For the soul, indeed, since it is capable of passion shares in the pain and suffering of a bodily cut, though it is not cut itself but only the body: but the divine part which is void ofpassion does not share in the suffering of the body.
Observe, further , that we say that God suffered in the flesh, but never that His divinity suffered in the flesh, or that God suffered through the flesh. For if, when the sun is shining upon a tree, the axe should cleave the tree, and, nevertheless, the sun remainsuncleft and void of passion, much more will the passionless divinity of the Word, united in subsistence to the flesh, remain void of passion when the body undergoes passion. And should any one pour water over flaming steel, it is that which naturally suffers by the water, I mean, the fire, that is quenched, but the steel remains untouched (for it is not the nature of steel to be destroyed by water): much more, then, when the flesh suffered did His only passionless divinity escape all passion although abiding inseparable from it. For one must not take the examples too absolutely and strictly: indeed, in the examples, one must consider both what is like and what is unlike, otherwise it would not be an example. For, if they were like in all respects they would be identities, and not examples, and all the more so in dealing with divine matters. For one cannot find an example that is like in all respects whether we are dealing with theology or the dispensation. " Exposition on the Orthodox Faith, Book Three, Chapter 26: www.newadvent.org/fathers/33043.htmIn IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by Ramon on Jun 22, 2009 19:35:52 GMT -5
Just to make a point about the Ark of the covenant and the "Mercy Seat of God" The Mercy Seat sat on top of the Ark. At the sides (facing each other) of the Ark were the cheribum. The cheribum did not face toward the priest. When the priest sprinkled blood on the Mercy Seat or bowed before the Mercy Seat he did not look at or bow before the cheribum only the Mercy Seat. So stop bowing before statues of Mary. LOL! You don't know what you talking about! LOL! Bowing down doesn't always mean "worship". In Scriptures, bowing down is often done in greeting another person (in a non-worshiping manner) (Gen 27:29; 33:3-7; 37:10; 41:43; 42:6; 43:26; 47:31; 48:12; 49:8; Ruth 2:10; 1 Sam 20:41; 24:8; 25:23, 41; 28:14; 2 Sam 9:8; 14:22, 33; 18:21; 24:20; 1 Kings 1:15, 23 (obeisance), 31(reverence), 47, 53; 2:19; 2 Kings 2:15; 4:37; 1 Chr 21:21; Est 3:2 (reverence); Isa 60:14). And who said the Priest never bow down to the Ark (etc)? You certainty didn't get that from studying Scriptures. The Scriptures do command the Israelites to bow before the Ark, which had two prominent images of cherubim on it. In Psalms 99:5, it commands: "bow before the footstool of His feet...." And what is the "footstool of His feet"? In 1st Chronicles 28:2, David uses this phrase in reference to the Ark of the Covenant. In Psalm 99 [98 in the Septuagint], it begins by speaking of the Lord who "dwells between the Cherubim" (99:1), and it ends with a call to "bow to His holy hill"—which makes it even clearer that in context, this is speaking of the Ark of the Covenant. This phrase occurs again in Psalm 132:7, where it is preceded by the statement "We will go into His tabernacles..." and is followed by the statement "Arise, O Lord, into Thy rest; Thou and the Ark of Thy strength." Interestingly, this phrase is applied to the Cross in the services of the Church, and the connection is not accidental, because on the Ark, between the Cherubim was the Mercy Seat, upon which the sacrificial blood was sprinkled for the sins of the people (Exodus 25:22, Leviticus 16:15). Please alfie, when you go to your Methodist Church again, please tell your Pastor and your Brothers and Sisters that they are Idolaters, because they have two images of the cross in the Church! Wood-Worshipers!  In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by Ramon on Jun 22, 2009 19:39:05 GMT -5
Oh Sweetheart, Holy Icons was so special in the Old Testament!
Consider how prevalent they were in the Tabernacle and then later in the Temple. There were images of cherubim:
On the Ark—Ex. 25:18
On the Curtains of the Tabernacle—Ex. 26:1
On the Veil of the Holy of Holies—Ex. 26:31
Two huge Cherubim in the Sanctuary—1st Kings 6:23
On the Walls—1st Kings 6:29
On the Doors—1st Kings 6:32
And on the furnishings—1st Kings 7:29,36
In short, there were Icons everywhere you turned.
So much for your theory that "he [the Priest] did not look at or bow before the cheribum only the Mercy Seat" According to you, every Jew in the Old Testament were Idolaters! How sad!
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 22, 2009 19:45:05 GMT -5
Actually, it is interesting that we are bringing up the ark.
Mary is often compared to the Holy ark. It's interesting that people say Catholics are terrible for having images of Mary (who is a human) but then they have no problem with golden images of Angels in the Holy of Holies!
Yet even the Archangel Gabriel gave honor to the Mother of God.
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Post by Ramon on Jun 22, 2009 20:33:21 GMT -5
Actually, it is interesting that we are bringing up the ark. Mary is often compared to the Holy ark. It's interesting that people say Catholics are terrible for having images of Mary (who is a human) but then they have no problem with golden images of Angels in the Holy of Holies! Yet even the Archangel Gabriel gave honor to the Mother of God. Amen! It is very interesting that anti-Catholics say we can't have images of Angels and Saints, but then they go around and say that there church (like Alfie's church) have images of the cross in the altar! Apparently, they have no problem with having Icons of the cross in there church. Apparently, they have no problem dealing with the fact that the Tabernacle and the Temple were filled with Holy Icons and Statues, but then they go around with there venom and say Catholics and Orthodox shouldn't have Icons or Statues in the Church and that we worship them because we bow down to them or kiss them. It is so weird! There theology is full of twists and turns. Alfie can't really decide what she believes. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by alfie on Jun 22, 2009 20:57:48 GMT -5
Actually, it is interesting that we are bringing up the ark. Mary is often compared to the Holy ark. It's interesting that people say Catholics are terrible for having images of Mary (who is a human) but then they have no problem with golden images of Angels in the Holy of Holies! Yet even the Archangel Gabriel gave honor to the Mother of God. Amen! It is very interesting that anti-Catholics say we can't have images of Angels and Saints, but then they go around and say that there church (like Alfie's church) have images of the cross in the altar! Apparently, they have no problem with having Icons of the cross in there church. Apparently, they have no problem dealing with the fact that the Tabernacle and the Temple were filled with Holy Icons and Statues, but then they go around with there venom and say Catholics and Orthodox shouldn't have Icons or Statues in the Church and that we worship them because we bow down to them or kiss them. It is so weird! There theology is full of twists and turns. Alfie can't really decide what she believes. In IC.XC, Ramon That is only partly true. When the Jews turned away from God their Temples and Tabernacles contained Icons and Statues. And in later centuries, the bias against human forms as synagogue decorations grew and in time prevailed. Such decorations came to be regarded as contrary to the second commandment: "You shall not make for yourself a sculptured image, or any likeness of what is in the heavens above, or on the earth below, or in the waters under the earth" (Exodus 20:4). |
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Post by Ramon on Jun 22, 2009 21:02:21 GMT -5
That is only partly true. When the Jews turned away from God their Temples and Tabernacles contained Icons and Statues. And in later centuries, the bias against human forms as synagogue decorations grew and in time prevailed. Such decorations came to be regarded as contrary to the second commandment: "You shall not make for yourself a sculptured image, or any likeness of what is in the heavens above, or on the earth below, or in the waters under the earth" (Exodus 20:4). LOL! You don't know what you talking about! LOL God commanded the Jews to make Holy Icons and Statues (see the Exodus texts and so forth). God wanted them in the Tabernacle and then later in the Temple. Even you admitted that earlier (page 2). What, you change your story as time goes by? Holy Icons and Statues was part of the Tabernacle and then later in the Temple. It was part of the Old Testament. Deal with it Alfie! Gosh! Get over it! Holy Icons has its origins in the Old Testament. Second, I already explained Exodus 20:4. God commanded them not to make Idols. He did not forbid Images in general. Of course you and your Methodist people don't believe God forbidden Images in general because Methodists love having images of the cross in there churches. Even yours have two. How does this work with you? You should tell your Pastor and congregation that they are idolaters (wood-worshipers). In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by alfie on Jun 22, 2009 21:12:37 GMT -5
Actually, it is interesting that we are bringing up the ark. Mary is often compared to the Holy ark. It's interesting that people say Catholics are terrible for having images of Mary (who is a human) but then they have no problem with golden images of Angels in the Holy of Holies! Yet even the Archangel Gabriel gave honor to the Mother of God. Amen! It is very interesting that anti-Catholics say we can't have images of Angels and Saints, but then they go around and say that there church (like Alfie's church) have images of the cross in the altar! Apparently, they have no problem with having Icons of the cross in there church. Apparently, they have no problem dealing with the fact that the Tabernacle and the Temple were filled with Holy Icons and Statues, but then they go around with there venom and say Catholics and Orthodox shouldn't have Icons or Statues in the Church and that we worship them because we bow down to them or kiss them. It is so weird! There theology is full of twists and turns. Alfie can't really decide what she believes. In IC.XC, Ramon How is an empty cross comparible to a statue of Mary or an icon? We don't have Jesus on the cross because He is in Heaven. What gets me is most of the images of Jesus in Catholic churchs are of Him as a baby. That's so you can promote Mary. It's like this thing with Mary's heart being pierced with a spear and how she grieved over the death of Jesus. Catholics never portray her after Christ was risen from the dead and how happy she would have been seeing Jesus. |
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Post by Ramon on Jun 22, 2009 21:20:10 GMT -5
Amen! It is very interesting that anti-Catholics say we can't have images of Angels and Saints, but then they go around and say that there church (like Alfie's church) have images of the cross in the altar! Apparently, they have no problem with having Icons of the cross in there church. Apparently, they have no problem dealing with the fact that the Tabernacle and the Temple were filled with Holy Icons and Statues, but then they go around with there venom and say Catholics and Orthodox shouldn't have Icons or Statues in the Church and that we worship them because we bow down to them or kiss them. It is so weird! There theology is full of twists and turns. Alfie can't really decide what she believes. In IC.XC, Ramon How is an empty cross comparible to a statue of Mary or an icon? We don't have Jesus on the cross because He is in Heaven. What gets me is most of the images of Jesus in Catholic churchs are of Him as a baby. That's so you can promote Mary. It's like this thing with Mary's heart being pierced with a spear and how she grieved over the death of Jesus. Catholics never portray her after Christ was risen from the dead and how happy she would have been seeing Jesus. I am a Orthodox, o.k? First, the Icon with Mary and child is just that. It shows the Nativity of Jesus Christ. The Theotokos is most commonly portrayed as holding Jesus. Also, the Theotokos is pictured in Catholic and Orthodox Icons after Christ was risen from the dead (i.e.., the Icon of Pentecost, etc). What are you talking about? Stop spreading your Anti-Catholic venom please. Also a cross is a image (Icon). Your church has two, despite your twisted interpretation of Exodus 20:4. You don't see a problem with that? Using your interpretation of Exdous 20:3, despite what the Hebrew and Greek texts said, then having a Image of the cross is Idolatry. You shouldn't have them. You can't talk against Icons, when your own Church have a image (material) of the cross in the altar. That's being a hypocrite. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by alfie on Jun 22, 2009 21:25:50 GMT -5
How is an empty cross comparible to a statue of Mary or an icon? We don't have Jesus on the cross because He is in Heaven. What gets me is most of the images of Jesus in Catholic churchs are of Him as a baby. That's so you can promote Mary. It's like this thing with Mary's heart being pierced with a spear and how she grieved over the death of Jesus. Catholics never portray her after Christ was risen from the dead and how happy she would have been seeing Jesus. I am a Orthodox, o.k? First, the Icon with Mary and child is just that. It shows the Nativity of Jesus Christ. The Theotokos is most commonly portrayed as holding Jesus. Also, the Theotokos is pictured in Catholic and Orthodox Icons after Christ was risen from the dead (i.e.., the Icon of Pentecost, etc). What are you talking about? Stop spreading your Anti-Catholic venom please. Also a cross is a image (Icon). Your church has two, despite your twisted interpretation of Exodus 20:4. You don't see a problem with that? You can't talk against Icons, when your own Church have a image (material) of the cross in the altar. That's being a hypocrite. In IC.XC, Ramon When was the term Theotokos first used? Not until after the council of Chalcedon. Before that it was Christokos. You keep adding and adding to her titles. When I was at the Greek Orthodox church they showed an icon with a small Jesus in place of Mary's heart. It was to signafy that Jesus lives in our hearts. I still don't like it. |
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Post by Ramon on Jun 22, 2009 21:31:18 GMT -5
When was the term Theotokos first used? Not until after the council of Chalcedon. Before that it was Christokos. LOL! No, you passing misinformation! You have your History upside down. The Old Serpent Nestorius was the first to introduce the title "Christokos", which why the Church convened the Holy Ecumenical Council of Ephesus to declare him a heretic and proclaim the true Apostolic Faith, duh! LOL. The Holy Ecumenical Council of Ephesus was convened 20 years before the Holy Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon, in the year 431AD! The Church rejected Nestorius and his teachings (which you also reject I will assume). the Holy Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon was not convened to reject Nestorius' heretical teachings. Before the Holy Council of Chalcedon, the Fathers used this title to reference Mary or loosed translation as Mother of God (or God-Bearer), which doesn't mean Mary is part of the Trinity or gave birth to the divine nature of God, as if God had a Mother by nature, see what Saint Cyril of Alexandria wrote below. Actually, Scriptures calls Mary, Mother of the Lord (God), in Luke 1:43. The title has biblical roots! We did not add that title, the Holy Spirit did! "After this, we receive the doctrine of the resurrection from the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the first-fruits; Who bore a Body, in truth, not in semblance, derived from Mary the mother of God (59) in the fulness of time sojourning among the race, for the remission of sins: who was crucified and died, yet for all this suffered no diminution of His Godhead." Alexander of Alexandria,Epistle to Alexander,12(A.D. 324),in NPNF2,III:40 "And the Angel on his appearance, himself confesses that he has been sent by his Lord; as Gabriel confessed in the case of Zacharias, and also in the case of Mary, bearer of God." Saint Athanasius,Orations III,14(A.D. 362),in NPNF2,IV:401 "Many, my beloved, are the true testimonies concerning Christ. The Father bears witness from heaven of His Son: the Holy Ghost bears witness, descending bodily in likeness of a dove: the Archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing good tidings to Mary: the Virgin Mother of God bears witness: the blessed place of the manger bears witness." Saint Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,X:19(c.A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:62 "If anyone does not believe that Holy Mary is the Mother of God, he is severed from the Godhead." Saint Gregory of Nazianzus,To Cledonius,101(A.D. 382),in NPNF2,VII:439 "Just as, in the age of Mary the mother of God, he who had reigned from Adam to her time found, when he came to her and dashed his forces against the fruit of her virginity as against a rock, that he was shattered to pieces upon her, so in every soul which passes through this life in the flesh under the protection of virginity, the strength of death is in a manner broken and annulled, for he does not find the places upon which he may fix his sting." Saint Gregory of Nyssa,On Virginity,14 (A.D. 370),in NPNF2,V:359-360 "He reshaped man to perfection in Himself, from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit." Epiphanius,The man well-anchored,75 (A.D. 374),in JUR,II:70 "Let, then, the life of Mary be as it were virginity itself, set forth in a likeness, from which, as from a mirror, the appearance of chastity and the form of virtue is reflected. From this you may take your pattern of life, showing, as an example, the clear rules of virtue: what you have to correct, to effect, and to hold fast. The first thing which kindles ardour in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God?" Saint Ambrose,Virginity,II:6 (c.A.D. 378),in NPNF2,X:374 "AND so you say, O heretic, whoever you may be, who deny that God was born of the Virgin, that Mary the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ ought not to be called Theotocos, i.e., Mother of God, but Christotocos, i.e., only the Mother of Christ, not of God. For no one, you say, brings forth what is anterior in time. And of this utterly foolish argument whereby you think that the birth of God can be understood by carnal minds, and fancy that the mystery of His Majesty can be accounted for by human reasoning, we will, if God permits, say something later on. In the meanwhile we will now prove by Divine testimonies that Christ is God, and that Mary is the Mother of God." John Cassian,The Incarnation of Christ,II:2 (A.D. 430),in NPNF2,XI:556 "But since the Holy Virgin brought forth after the flesh God personally united to the flesh, for this reason we say of her that she is Theotokos, not as though the nature of the Word had its beginning of being from the flesh, for he was in the beginning, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God....but, as we said before, because having personally united man's nature to himself..."Saint Cyril of Alexandria,To Nestorius,Epistle 17:11 (A.D. 430),in CCC,306. "If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (Theotokos), inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [as it is written, 'The Word was made flesh': let him be anathema." Council of Ephesus,Anathemas Against Nestorius,I (A.D. 430),in NPNF2,XIV:206 You should study the Fathers and Church History. You have your history and dates upside down. When I was at the Greek Orthodox church they showed an icon with a small Jesus in place of Mary's heart. It was to signafy that Jesus lives in our hearts. I still don't like it. I sure do! I love the Iconography of the Holy Eastern Orthodox Church. They are beautiful and heavenly, just like the Holy Icons and Statues of the Old Testament (the Tabernacle and Temple). |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 23, 2009 8:46:39 GMT -5
I guess no one understands what I am trying to say...oh well. Jesus's sacrifice was very important and it definilty "counts"....but if it ended there, it's nothing. It's the risen Jesus that makes it all worth while...if He didn't come back, it would have just been another dead man. What do you think freed you from original sin? His ressurection? Or His death? |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 23, 2009 9:10:55 GMT -5
Just to make a point about the Ark of the covenant and the "Mercy Seat of God" The Mercy Seat sat on top of the Ark. At the sides (facing each other) of the Ark were the cheribum. The cheribum did not face toward the priest. When the priest sprinkled blood on the Mercy Seat or bowed before the Mercy Seat he did not look at or bow before the cheribum only the Mercy Seat. So stop bowing before statues of Mary. But The Bible doesn't prohibit bowing "before" a statue of Jesus' Blessed mother. If I were to listen to you, then I'd be following "man".  |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 23, 2009 9:13:58 GMT -5
But when you have an "empty" cross, aren't you just glorifying an instrument of death? Why have a cross at all if you don't want to think about suffering?
It seems like a more appropriate icon(image) in your Church should be an empty tomb instead of an empty cross. Why not?
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 23, 2009 9:19:07 GMT -5
Steven, the whole process.....He didn't just stop at His death.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 23, 2009 9:37:53 GMT -5
Ive never bowed down to anything ALFIE...GET OVER IT ALLREADY! LOL!  |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 23, 2009 9:49:42 GMT -5
Oh Sweetheart, Holy Icons was so special in the Old Testament! Consider how prevalent they were in the Tabernacle and then later in the Temple. There were images of cherubim: On the Ark—Ex. 25:18 On the Curtains of the Tabernacle—Ex. 26:1 On the Veil of the Holy of Holies—Ex. 26:31 Two huge Cherubim in the Sanctuary—1st Kings 6:23 On the Walls—1st Kings 6:29 On the Doors—1st Kings 6:32 And on the furnishings—1st Kings 7:29,36 In short, there were Icons everywhere you turned. So much for your theory that "he [the Priest] did not look at or bow before the cheribum only the Mercy Seat" According to you, every Jew in the Old Testament were Idolaters! How sad! |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 23, 2009 9:52:14 GMT -5
Actually, it is interesting that we are bringing up the ark. Mary is often compared to the Holy ark. It's interesting that people say Catholics are terrible for having images of Mary (who is a human) but then they have no problem with golden images of Angels in the Holy of Holies! Yet even the Archangel Gabriel gave honor to the Mother of God. Yep, Gabriel "praised" Mary. And she is The Ark of The New Covenant which is Christ. As The Old Ark carried The Law (God's Word), she carried Jesus (The Word of God). Amen!  |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 23, 2009 10:49:05 GMT -5
Amen! It is very interesting that anti-Catholics say we can't have images of Angels and Saints, but then they go around and say that there church (like Alfie's church) have images of the cross in the altar! Apparently, they have no problem with having Icons of the cross in there church. Apparently, they have no problem dealing with the fact that the Tabernacle and the Temple were filled with Holy Icons and Statues, but then they go around with there venom and say Catholics and Orthodox shouldn't have Icons or Statues in the Church and that we worship them because we bow down to them or kiss them. It is so weird! There theology is full of twists and turns. Alfie can't really decide what she believes. In IC.XC, Ramon That is only partly true. When the Jews turned away from God their Temples and Tabernacles contained Icons and Statues. And in later centuries, the bias against human forms as synagogue decorations grew and in time prevailed. Such decorations came to be regarded as contrary to the second commandment: "You shall not make for yourself a sculptured image, or any likeness of what is in the heavens above, or on the earth below, or in the waters under the earth" (Exodus 20:4). Oh, another case of Protestant "that's not applicable to us anymore".  |
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What do you mean He didn't suffer in "his divinity"
