|
|
Post by cradlecathlic27 on Jun 29, 2009 10:15:27 GMT -5
Why would God have Jesus's Mother a sinner?
|
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2009 10:18:33 GMT -5
others in the OT called God their Savior...doesn't mean they were sinless. Only one of them bore Christ. Jesus Christ's sinlessness is proof that Mary was sinless. Had Mary been sinful, so would Christ because you can tell the tree by the fruit it bears. Right? And like Jesus said, a bad tree cannot produce a good fruit right? |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2009 10:19:33 GMT -5
others in the OT called God their Savior...doesn't mean they were sinless. By the way, which bus would you choose to send your kid to school in if you had the choice? The immaculate bus? Or the dirty bus? |
|
|
|
Post by emily445455 on Jun 29, 2009 10:21:49 GMT -5
God uses sinners...if He didn't nothing would get done. I'd still like to see a verse that states she was sinless.
I believe she was blameless...but that's not the same thing as sinless.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2009 10:23:16 GMT -5
Why would God have Jesus's Mother a sinner? Exactly. Hence my "dirty bus/immaculate bus" example that rarely ever gets answered.  |
|
|
|
Post by emily445455 on Jun 29, 2009 10:28:07 GMT -5
I just answered it...God uses sinners. God uses both "buses" that are dirty and "buses" that were dirty but are covered by the blood of Christ.
So there's no verse that says Mary is sinless?
|
|
|
|
Post by teresahrc on Jun 29, 2009 10:36:31 GMT -5
Emily,
Just show me a verse that says babies go straight to heaven when they die without accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and then I will show you the verse that says Mary is sinless. OK?
|
|
|
|
Post by emily445455 on Jun 29, 2009 10:38:00 GMT -5
Heather, this is a thread about Mary, not babies that die.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2009 10:54:13 GMT -5
Heather, this is a thread about Mary, not babies that die. But, she is pointing out things that are believed that are "not" explicitly spelled out in scripture.  |
|
|
|
Post by emily445455 on Jun 29, 2009 10:59:59 GMT -5
I just looked up babies going to heaven. It's in 2 Sam and Jesus talks about it in...Matthew I think.
So, your turn Heather/Steven.
|
|
|
|
Post by teresahrc on Jun 29, 2009 11:02:42 GMT -5
wait a minute! You have to quote the verses Emily. There are hundreds of verses in Samuel and in Matthew. Which ones?
|
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2009 11:07:05 GMT -5
I just looked up babies going to heaven. It's in 2 Sam and Jesus talks about it in...Matthew I think. So, your turn Heather/Steven. 2 Sam what? If you looked it up, why didn't you post it if it's actually in scripture to educate us? Matthew 1 you "think"? Not very convincing Em... |
|
|
|
Post by teresahrc on Jun 29, 2009 11:07:28 GMT -5
Emily, yes it is about Mary. You said you were confused about what Catholics believe, so I'm trying to explain it to you. I'm confused....I thought most Catholics believe that Mary was sinless and didn't need a Savior. Then you said I was trying to show you the Biblical evidence. But before I can show you that, I needed to know if you believe there is Biblical evidence that supports Babies being without sin and without need of a "profession of faith" in order to go to heaven. |
|
|
|
Post by emily445455 on Jun 29, 2009 11:10:18 GMT -5
Ya know, this isn't quite fair...but okay:
2 Sam 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. (David speaking about his child-son that just died)
Matt 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
I'm guessing I'm getting all this run around because there isn't a verse about Mary being sinless....?
|
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2009 11:13:53 GMT -5
Ya know, this isn't quite fair...but okay: 2 Sam 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. (David speaking about his child-son that just died) Doesn't say the he went to heaven. Doesn't say dead babies. He was talking about living babies. And, I'm still waiting for you to answer my response to you about how Mary was saved by God BEFORE Jesus was born. Not only that, you never answered my question on which bus you'd send your kid to school in. And I posted a ton of scriptures talking about Mary's sinlesslessness in one post. Didn't you read it? So, who's the one getting the run around here when we have to actively ask you to post the text of verses that you post?  |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2009 11:14:58 GMT -5
God uses sinners...if He didn't nothing would get done. I'd still like to see a verse that states she was sinless. I believe she was blameless...but that's not the same thing as sinless. I asked you which bus would "you" use. Which bus would you send your kid to school in. I never asked if God uses sinners. Why don't you share with us which bus you'd prefer to send you kid to school in if you had the choice? |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2009 11:15:44 GMT -5
I just answered it...God uses sinners. God uses both "buses" that are dirty and "buses" that were dirty but are covered by the blood of Christ. So there's no verse that says Mary is sinless? But the question is which bus would "you" use Emily. Why don't you tell us which bus you'd use? The clean one or the dirty one if you had the choice? |
|
|
|
Post by emily445455 on Jun 29, 2009 11:15:52 GMT -5
Okay, there isn't a verse that states Mary was sinless.
And if you can't see babies being Safe in Christ and if you can't understand the mercy of God....I feel very sorry for you.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2009 11:17:20 GMT -5
I just answered it...God uses sinners. God uses both "buses" that are dirty and "buses" that were dirty but are covered by the blood of Christ. So there's no verse that says Mary is sinless? Here are the verses that you've avoided responding to again...let's take each one, one by one, ok? ;D Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God's Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh. 2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb. 1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible. 1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets. Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke's conspicuous comparison's between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant. Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh. Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus. Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months. Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the "woman" clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written. Rev 12:1 - the "woman" that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ. Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary's offspring are those who keep God's commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians. Rev. 12:2 - Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary's offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus. Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ. Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ. Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ. Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures. Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically. Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail. Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives. |
|
|
|
Post by teresahrc on Jun 29, 2009 11:17:32 GMT -5
Ok, thanks Emily.
Great. So 2 Sam. 12:23....
David said "I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me". Ok, sounds good at first, but the problem with using that verse is that it doesn't say WHERE the the boy went. We can only assume it was heaven. Or was it Abraham's Bosom? Sheol? Hades?
Matthew 19:14.
Now THAT is an excellent verse about Mary. "for of such is the kingdom of heaven". So it seems that Jesus is saying that not only children, but ALSO those who are LIKE children (in purity innocence etc) belong to His kingdom.
Mary was called "Full of Grace" and "favored" by God. It sure sounds like she had the same pure heart and faith that Jesus talked about in Matt. 19.
|
|
