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Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2009 11:18:17 GMT -5
Okay, there isn't a verse that states Mary was sinless. And if you can't see babies being Safe in Christ and if you can't understand the mercy of God....I feel very sorry for you. Yes! Are you saying that Jesus was sinful because He is the fruit of a sinful tree? I've asked you this over and over and you never answered it. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2009 11:19:04 GMT -5
Emily, show us a verse that states that Mary sinned?
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 29, 2009 11:19:58 GMT -5
David was a Hebrew who tried to serve God, he would have gone to Abraham's Bosom...the heaven before Christ. We have to be like children to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Children are definilty like children. Okay....so....your turn Heather  |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 29, 2009 11:23:40 GMT -5
Steven, I have before. Romans 3:23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
That includes me, you, Mary, my husband. All means all. And Jesus is God.
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 29, 2009 11:27:16 GMT -5
We have to be a certain way to enter Heaven? I thought it wasn't about works?
And where in the Bible does it say that Mary sinned?
Why accuse the innocent? Why slander her for no reason? Would you ever sit here on the computer and try to convince everyone of how sinful your "natural" mother is? Why in the world do you want to prove that the Mother of your Savior is evil?
Listen, I know that I AM a sinner, but I'm not going to accuse you or anyone else here of sinning, and certainly not Jesus' Mother.
How does that Honor her? What would Jesus do?
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 29, 2009 11:28:16 GMT -5
Steven, I have before. Romans 3:23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; That includes me, you, Mary, my husband. All means all. And Jesus is God. Emily, have unborn children sinned? Babies in their mother's womb? Aborted babies? What is their sin? |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 29, 2009 11:29:09 GMT -5
My mother has sinned just like Mary sinned. I just posted a verse about everyone has sinned.
And being like a child is a picture of when we get Saved....the Bible says we have to be like a child, and children are definilty like children.
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 29, 2009 11:37:26 GMT -5
unborn babies have sinned? Do you really believe that?
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 29, 2009 11:38:34 GMT -5
I said it was a picture...which means it isn't exactly like it. I wasn't implying babies have sinned.
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Post by biblebeliever100 on Jun 29, 2009 12:14:41 GMT -5
So according to teresahrc mary was sinless but needed a savior, according to cepha she was sinless and didn't need a savior, and according to emily445455 she wasn't sinless. Am I correct in making all of those assumptions? So IF she is sinless... does she need a savior or not? And IF she doesn't need a savior what was the point of Jesus? Why couldn't mary save everyone if she was sinless? She was born after the seed of Adam..who was a sinner so by default she had original sin, she was not God or Jesus. Therefore she needs a savior correct? She could have been a great person, but according to Romans 3:23 "...all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Is Mary an exception to this? God is 100% perfect....so therefore she can't be an exception unless God isn't perfect... then.. if you say that then who says what's true and what isn't!! There can only be one answer... and everything lines up to show you that!!
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Post by biblebeliever100 on Jun 29, 2009 12:18:09 GMT -5
Unborn babies are from the seed of Adam so they are not perfect...but there is the age of accountability that you have to bring into the picture. Babies will go to heaven if they die.....but once they reach that age of accountability then they are responsible and need a Savior to get to heaven.
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 29, 2009 12:19:11 GMT -5
Also, if Mary is an exception to Romans 3:23, the Bible is lieing. Therefore, none of what the Bible says can be trusted. If it's lieing about Mary, who says it isn't lieing about everything else?
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Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2009 12:25:47 GMT -5
So according to teresahrc mary was sinless but needed a savior, according to cepha she was sinless and didn't need a savior, According to Cepha, she was sinless because God saved her from sin. God forms us in The Womb. God formed Mary sinless. This is evident by her fruit. Jesus Christ. Who is undeniably sinless. Jesus had to be born of a sinless woman. He could not be the fruit of sin. Impossible. Then, Jesus couldn't go on to "become" sin later in scripture. It is not Jesus' sinlessness that gives Him authority to save, but God's mandate. So no matter who was sinless, only Jesus could save because all thing were created "through" Jesus Christ. Therefore, Christ being the author of all that is in existance, He could undo what man has wrought upon himself. She would need a savior "if" she was procreated without God's intervention. But she wasn't. She literally called God (not Jesus) her Savior. Again, God forms us in The Womb. So, God formed her sinless. Why? Because Jesus got His flesh from her flesh. It had to be pure (not purified). Think about it like this...Mary undid, what Eve did. Eve was formed out of Adam's flesh and bone. Adam sinned. With Jesus and Mary, it's the reverse. Jesus was created out of Mary's flesh and bone. Jesus saved. And thus, you have the reversal of original sin. If that quote was absolute, then that would include Jesus Christ too. There are tons of scriptures that sound absolute, but are not. This is evident with the Old Testament Law that is still in effect, but not applicable to all. Yes God is 100% perfect, but not to our standards. He defines perfection. Not only that, if God wanted to form His Son's mother perfect so that His Son would have pefect flesh to sacrifice and perfect blood to spill for us, He could do it. And Mary has to be an exception...she is the only human being that gave birth to Jesus Christ. No man contributed to His formation, but Mary. |
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Post by biblebeliever100 on Jun 29, 2009 12:55:17 GMT -5
Whoa there's a lot going on here! Ok..... umm I'll number the points... to keep this straightforward! 1. Mary was born from a father and mother that were human here on earth correct? Then...she was born after Adam..... she was a sinner. I agree with what emily445455 said before that she could be 100% blameless but she cannot be sinless. 2. Jesus was born from a woman that sinned. She was not perfect because she is not God. God is His Father which makes Him perfect. You can look at it this way..... God canceled out the sin of man.... to create Jesus. Jesus was born from the seed of God not man and not mary. God just happened to choose mary because she was a blameless women. 3. I realize that Jesus did not save because he was sinless. He saves because He is God. And no one could save because they are sinless because no man is so that point is basically invalid. 4. Again... Mary was born from the seed of Adam... of man. cepha says that God intervened with Mary, but then God intervenes with us all doesn't He? So does that make us all sinless? You also cannot use the comparison of Adam and Eve because yes Eve was created from Adams rib, but that was when they were like God. That was before they sinned, so that fact just shows that the comparison is not valid. 5. No, Romans 3:23 doesn't mean that Jesus sinned...because Jesus is God... If you say that then you are saying that God sins and He doesn't He is perfect. So that isn't scripturally true. 6. Mary cannot be an exception like I stated before. If she is than you are saying that God lies and is wrong; that isn't true!! |
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Post by alfie on Jun 29, 2009 13:17:31 GMT -5
Unborn babies are from the seed of Adam so they are not perfect...but there is the age of accountability that you have to bring into the picture. Babies will go to heaven if they die.....but once they reach that age of accountability then they are responsible and need a Savior to get to heaven. From a book I am currently reading; In the fourteen century Catholics believed that fireflies were the souls of unbaptized infants. Sounds more like reincarnation than Christianity...don't you think? |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 29, 2009 13:19:36 GMT -5
 that made me giggle. Truth be told though...people used to believe all sorts of crazy stuff....both catholic and not.
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Post by alfie on Jun 29, 2009 13:22:42 GMT -5
Of course she was sinless, But she still needed a savior!! Everyone needs Jesus to be their Savior, why would Mary be an exception? The Orthodox church says Mary was a sinner. |
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Post by biblebeliever100 on Jun 29, 2009 14:08:46 GMT -5
Haha fireflies!!! Nice!! But yea people will believe whatever.... its so sad!!! Especially when people believe things that are so close to the truth.. just a tad off! |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 29, 2009 15:52:06 GMT -5
The Orthdox don't believe that, but that is beside the point. We are Catholic. Alfie, you should pay more attn. To what the founder of your churc said about Mary.
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Post by toy4mud on Jun 29, 2009 17:15:43 GMT -5
Cepha, none of your posted verses mention "Mary" you've just interjected her in them to try and prove your point. If you say that God wouldn't put Jesus in the womb of a sinful person because sin would be transfered to him, then where did Mary come from? It must have been a long line of sinless lineage. It has been inferred that a main supporting argument for Mary being sinless is that "She has to be."
Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Men is everyone. This is scripture reference that all have sinned.
Romans 3:13
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
I would choose the dirty bus.
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that made me giggle.