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Post by teresahrc on Jul 1, 2009 17:48:28 GMT -5
Steven, You believe all women are sinless? How kind of you. Man is short for mankind. LOL! Not my ex's! LOL! Only my "next" woman is sinless in my eyes!  And! It don't say "man", but "men"! LOL! Don't tell me it's short for "menkind"! LOL! Your "next" woman? What happened to the Muslim girl? You didn't break her heart already did you? |
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Post by Ramon on Jul 1, 2009 19:00:50 GMT -5
2 Samuel 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. Luke 18:16-17: 16But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 17Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein. Matthew 18:3-5: 3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. And those verses prove what? Do you believe Infants are born with a sinful nature, a fallen nature? We can all agree that Infants have not committed any actual sin, but they are born with a fallen nature. They subject to death, suffering, pain, unhealthy desire to sin. That is why David wrote: ""Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." (Psalm 51:5, 50:1 LXX). Ephesians 2:3 said that we are all "by nature children of wrath." The only way that our corrupt nature can be healed is through Jesus Christ. _________________________________________ Proverbs 20 1Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. Proverbs 31 4It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Revelation 1:6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Revelation 5:10:And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Again, I compare Scripture with Scripture, I strive to be a workman who studies...not just someone who merely reads the Word. Lets compare Scriptures with Scriptures. Scriptures discuss wine in positive terms. Ecclesiastes 9:7 instructs, “Drink your wine with a merry heart.” Psalm 104:14-15 states that God gives wine “that makes glad the heart of men.” Amos 9:14 discusses drinking wine from your own vineyard as a sign of God’s blessing. Isaiah 55:1 encourages, “Yes, come buy wine and milk…”. What God commands Christians regarding alcohol is to avoid drunkenness (Ephesians 5:18). The Bible condemns drunkenness and its effects (Proverbs 23:29-35). Also, the Priesthood of the NT is different from the OT. Christians are under a new Covenant, a better one. We have Christian liberty. Read Romans 14. We are allowed to eat meat or drink, but not to make other weaker Christians fall. "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak." (v 21) "For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost" (v.17). Also, Em, do you follow everything the Lord told His Priests in the OT? For instance, do you wear Levitical clothing? Nuff said. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 20:51:13 GMT -5
Ramon, according to scriptures, if you drink...you are not wise. So maybe I shouldn't be taking most of what you say seriously  |
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 20:54:02 GMT -5
Heather, I come here to spread the Truth according to God's Word. I don't care who it goes against or who it agrees with.
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 20:57:28 GMT -5
Was thinking about this today during Bible study, because we read a verse about Mary.
Okay, according to Steven's logic...good fruit cannot come from a bad tree, a sinless person cannot come from a sinful person.
So were Mary's parents sinless? And Mary's grandparent's sinless? And Mary's greatgranparent's sinless? if they were, and you trail Mary's ancestry all the way back....then Noah and his wife would have to be sinless....and even farther, Adam and Eve would have to be sinless. Hm, something doesn't make sense here....can't put my finger on it.....
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Post by toy4mud on Jul 1, 2009 21:02:53 GMT -5
The fruit tree thing can be disregarded with this point. It doesn't apply to Mary's parents, or any of her lineage. Now with the comment which seems to be a valid argument, We can answer it with the baby goin to heaven question again...
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Post by toy4mud on Jul 1, 2009 21:07:08 GMT -5
A question:
Do you think if we come up with something good, through our discussions in these forums, can we sign a petition and have the church put it into the doctrine? Is that how it works? It seems as though it is ok for it to be ever changing since the Bible isn't the final word.
Just a question.
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Post by Ramon on Jul 1, 2009 21:41:26 GMT -5
Ramon, according to scriptures, if you drink...you are not wise. So maybe I shouldn't be taking most of what you say seriously Yup, someone who gets drunk is unwise. However, Scriptures speak about wine in a very positive way at times. And who said I drink? I don't. In fact, its illegal for me to drink. I am not 21 yet! LOL! ;D Don't want to get arrested you know......lol. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 21:51:09 GMT -5
It doesn't say get drunk, it says wine...period.
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Post by Ramon on Jul 1, 2009 21:58:22 GMT -5
It doesn't say get drunk, it says wine...period. Were? And are you ignoring the Scriptures that speaks about wine in a positive way? Yes, given to wine (drunkenness) is a sin. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 21:58:23 GMT -5
Ramon, you believe Mary was sinless correct? Do you believe her mother was also sinless? The "good fruit can't come from a bad tree" philosophy Steven holds?
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Post by Ramon on Jul 1, 2009 22:02:40 GMT -5
Ramon, you believe Mary was sinless correct? Do you believe her mother was also sinless? The "good fruit can't come from a bad tree" philosophy Steven holds? Who said Mary's parents, Saints Joachim and Anna, were sinless? This has nothing to do with the Ever-Virgin Mary, since God took care of her in a unique way, or rather she cooperate with God. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 22:11:24 GMT -5
In that verse, it says "wine is a mocker....", not "drunkedness is a mocker.....". Also, "wine" in the Bible isn't always fermented wine, sometimes it is "fruit of the vine" or grape juice.
So you don't believe in the "a bad tree can't produce good fruit" then? Okay, just asking. Steven will probably make something up to get around that.....*rolls eyes*
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Post by Ramon on Jul 1, 2009 22:20:35 GMT -5
In that verse, it says "wine is a mocker....", not "drunkedness is a mocker.....". Also, "wine" in the Bible isn't always fermented wine, sometimes it is "fruit of the vine" or grape juice. "strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise". That's the verse Em. Also, give several verses when "wine" is used in a non-alcoholic sense. So why is it that you interpret the NT texts about wine as grape juice? So when it agrees with your view, its alcoholic, but when it doesn't, its grape juice? But Em, Scriptures talks about wine, not grape juice, in a very positive way. When Scriptures talks about wine, it gives no indication that its talking about grape juice. So you don't believe in the "a bad tree can't produce good fruit" then? Okay, just asking. Steven will probably make something up to get around that.....*rolls eyes* I do not believe the Theotokos parents were sinless. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 22:29:12 GMT -5
Oh Ramon...that I think is something you should study out. Way too many verses about wine to go through each one.
One that I remember reading recently is John 2:9. The word for wine there was Oinos, which means "fruit of the vine", not fermented.
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Post by alfie on Jul 1, 2009 23:30:07 GMT -5
If you read about the Puritans and the Pilgrims they both drank ale and the reason for that was because water wasn't safe to drink. So now that we have safe water to drink there is no reason to drink alcoholic beverages..
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Post by teresahrc on Jul 2, 2009 0:45:14 GMT -5
A question: Do you think if we come up with something good, through our discussions in these forums, can we sign a petition and have the church put it into the doctrine? Is that how it works? It seems as though it is ok for it to be ever changing since the Bible isn't the final word. Just a question. . Why do protestants even have doctrine? Sermons? Seminaries? Bible studies? If the Bible is the only authority then why teach what it means? Why cut and paste it? Why divide it up, reorganize it, etc? Why not just read the "Bible alone"? So what is the final authority for protestants? When I was protestant, my final authority was my Bible + my own unerstanding of what it meant. Why is it that protestants can't aggree on anything? They can't all be right. |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 2, 2009 8:07:52 GMT -5
If you read about the Puritans and the Pilgrims they both drank ale and the reason for that was because water wasn't safe to drink. So now that we have safe water to drink there is no reason to drink alcoholic beverages.. Yes there is a reason to drink an alcoholic beverage...The Word of God commands it! 1 Timothy 5:23! Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.So, if you don't drink wine, you are sinning! And can't get into heaven! LOL! |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 2, 2009 8:21:27 GMT -5
Heather, Jesus is part of the latter part of that verse, not the first part. He's in that verse, just not under the world "all" because it applies to men, not God. Ramon, I'm not exactly sure why I should keep defending myself, when no one has given me a verse where it says Mary was sinless. I did. When Jesus said that a bad tree cannot produce a good fruit. Now, unless you think he was "literally" talking about gardening, you have to accept that as the parable that it is. Had Mary been sinful, so would Jesus have been. All His flesh and blood came from Mary. Not one Protestant has ever posted one verse that said that Mary sinned. Not one. Ninguno! See, what you believe is unbiblical...that a sinner can produce a sinless man. Impossible. Only purity can produce purity. Mary was pure. Period. There isn't a shred of evidence that she wasn't. Not one sin is ever attributed to her. I'd rather be wrong of attributing her with purity, than to be wrong about slandering her without evidence. But all you "Mary had sex"ians will have to answer to Jesus when you meet Him. Us? Even if we're wrong, Jesus will love us for loving His mother. Satan doesn't love Mary either. And those of you who call her soiled, who work hard to find scriptures to discredit her, who insult Jesus' mommy will not be greeted with open arms in heaven because not only will the Catholics up there be on Mary's side, but so will all the Church Fathers, The Angels, The Saints, The Holy Spirit, Jesus and God! Allllll loving Mary! My mommy and my Brother!  Luke 1:28,30 And the angel came in unto her, and said,
Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
And the angel said unto her,
Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 2, 2009 8:37:45 GMT -5
Ramon, I'm not exactly sure why I should keep defending myself, when no one has given me a verse where it says Mary was sinless. O.k, so we have concluded the following: 1) You and others here who believe the Ever-Virgin Mary sinned, have no scriptural support. 2) I and other here who believe that the Ever-Virgin Mary did not commit any actual sin have no scriptural support. We believe she was a exception. No problem Em, I am not Sola-Scripturist! LOL! But is this important? Emily, you believe Infants are sinless (innocent), even though you told us before that you did not get that from Scriptures. You told us you could find no Scripture to support your theory. You also believe Babies go to Heaven, drinking alcohol is a sin, even though Scriptures teach no such things. You still have not given me a verse that said drinking is a sin. So we both are even! LOL! In IC.XC, Ramon Speak for yourself Orthy! LOL! I posted the parable Jesus said about a bad tree not being able to produce a good fruit! LOL! And, let's not forget...the flesh that Jesus gave up for us and the blood that He spilled came 100% from Mary. It would be impossible for her to have even a nanogram of sin in her. She was formed "in" the womb sinless. Before her flesh was even created, her soul existed pure and Saint Ann's and Saint Joachim's contribution of flesh and blood was purified before Mary was soul was placed in Saint Ann's womb...the same way that Jesus was formed in Mary's womb, only, God didn't have to start out with imperfect flesh. |
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