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Post by Cepha on Jul 2, 2009 8:40:05 GMT -5
Heather, Jesus is part of the latter part of that verse, not the first part. He's in that verse, just not under the world "all" because it applies to men, not God. Jesus was human Em. He came from the seed of David (Rom 1:3), took flesh from the Ever-Virgin Mary. He was "born of a women" as Blessed Paul wrote. Humanity and divinity are hypostatically united together: the two natures exist in the one person of the Word who became flesh, a divine person (or hypostasis). Christ exists "in two natures," without being of two natures; the two natures exist united together "without confusion, without change, without division, without separation." (Council of Chalcedon). So the correct understanding of Romans 3:23 is that it applies to all men, with the exception of Jesus Christ, and for us, the Ever-Virgin Mary. In IC.XC, Ramon Amen to that! |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 2, 2009 8:48:23 GMT -5
Heather, I gave you a verse in 2nd Sam and about how one has to be like a child to enter heaven. Read what you just wrote...one is to be "like" a child (not "a child"). "like" "like" "like" "like" "like" ...a child. That doesn't say that children are granted instant access to heaven or that they have immunity from judgement. This scripture isn't about the child entering heaven, but about the person being willing to learn, being open to being taught, being freed from what they are programmed with by man, being correctly indoctrinated as only a child can be because they have not been soiled by men yet. You completely miss what Jesus is saying here. He's not saying "you have to be a 4 year old in your mind in order to get to heaven", but "you have to undo everything this world does to you in your mind and go back to zero and start fresh" to be one of His followers. |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 2, 2009 9:06:01 GMT -5
Hey! Look who's back! It's "Mr. Sensitive"! LOL! Well, you're not reading "this" forum, because that's not the reason giving for her being sinless! LOL! Read it again! Correction, not "everyone"...just "men". That is, "if" you're a Sola Scripturist (meaning, you take The Bible "as" written and don't personally interpret the words to say things they don't literally say). So every man has sinned (according to The Bible), but it don't mention the ladies now, does it? Well, according to Protestant theology, because you are a man.  You realllly should read more slowly. I wrote that example to discredit The King James "version" of The Holy Bible (as it's known to have added and subtracted words, phrases and entire books to/from The Holy Bible to create a new 16th Century bible for denominational Christians). The analogy shows how anyone can add or subtract scripture to create new beliefs (mind you, when did Protestantism start? Hmmm...after the Reformation, not before The Reformation). And, while there isn't a verse that states that Jesus didn't ride a bike to temple, it also doesn't mention that He didn't use computers. So, according to what you're "trying" to say, you believe that Jesus blogged now? LOL! Besides, that's called "negative evidence". Google it! Except in the case of The Blessed Virgin Mary, The Bible literally states that nothing good can come out of something that is corrupted. Sin is corruption. Jesus came from Mary. Is this another of Protestantism's "exceptions" when they want to believe that "this" (Mary being pure) is not true?  LOL! I'm glad you feel that way! I left you a slew of questions that you "didn't" answer! I'll fetch them for you and we can address them, how's that? LOL! We'll see! I'll be right back with the questions you "deflected"! LOL! |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 2, 2009 9:07:49 GMT -5
That's a good one Cepha. Why didn't I think of that? I'd love to see how that post is answered.  |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 2, 2009 9:08:36 GMT -5
LOL! Not my ex's! LOL! Only my "next" woman is sinless in my eyes! And! It don't say "man", but "men"! LOL! Don't tell me it's short for "menkind"! LOL! Your "next" woman? What happened to the Muslim girl? You didn't break her heart already did you? NO! I haven't been involved with her yet physically. |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 2, 2009 9:10:24 GMT -5
Ramon, according to scriptures, if you drink...you are not wise. So maybe I shouldn't be taking most of what you say seriously Really? What "scripture"? Your personal beliefs contradict what The Word of God teaches! 1 Timothy 5:23 Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses. Are you saying that God wants us to be "unwise" now? |
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Post by teresahrc on Jul 2, 2009 9:11:02 GMT -5
Why are we supposed to be like children? They are humble, they are innocent and pure. They don't question God. They say to Him'may it be done to me according to your word'
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Post by Cepha on Jul 2, 2009 9:13:35 GMT -5
Was thinking about this today during Bible study, because we read a verse about Mary. Okay, according to Steven's logic...good fruit cannot come from a bad tree, a sinless person cannot come from a sinful person. So were Mary's parents sinless? And Mary's grandparent's sinless? And Mary's greatgranparent's sinless? if they were, and you trail Mary's ancestry all the way back....then Noah and his wife would have to be sinless....and even farther, Adam and Eve would have to be sinless. Hm, something doesn't make sense here....can't put my finger on it..... It's amazing how you guys always come back with the exact same uneducated responses! LOL! God "formed" Mary in Ann's womb. Before she was made flesh, she existed (Mary). God purified Ann/Joachim's flesh, "then" placed Mary's soul in it! So, Mary wasn't Mary until her soul was combined with her flesh. After God purified the flesh contributed by Ann/Joachim, then Mary's sould was put in. That's how you can have a pure woman. God "can" create good from bad, but not man (Ann and Joachim couldn't have done it). The same way Jesus purifies us all. |
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Post by biblebeliever100 on Jul 2, 2009 9:14:57 GMT -5
According to Cepha: "Jesus' sacrifice did away with "original sin" automatically. So now, we are no longer born sinners. We sin "after" birth. Jesus brought us back in communion with God, but we either remove ourselves from God by our actions or strengthen our relationship with God by our actions. " So waaaaaait a second.... you say Jesus sacrificed himself to do away with 'original sin'...... then what's the whole baptism thing for?!?!??!??!!!? According to my catholic family and friends baptism is what 'deletes' 'original sin'...so which is it? No one can seem to give me a correct answer about this!!!! Help anyone!? LOL  |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 2, 2009 9:17:13 GMT -5
The fruit tree thing can be disregarded with this point. LMCBO! Yeah, it's another of those Protestant "that doesn't count" theories! Selective application of scripture! LOL! Exactly, why? Because they contributed to Mary's procreation, but not Jesus' procreation! Only Mary and The Holy Spirit contributed to Jesus' procreation! That's easy...babies do go to heaven...but not Protestant babies. They believe that you have to follow a certain formula depending on their denomination. For some, it's just belief. For others, it's belief and baptism. For others, it's belief and baptism and something else.... Etcetera... Questions for you Prots: Do Muslim babies that die prematurely go to heaven? How about Athiest babies? LOL! |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 2, 2009 9:18:40 GMT -5
A question: Do you think if we come up with something good, through our discussions in these forums, can we sign a petition and have the church put it into the doctrine? Is that how it works? It seems as though it is ok for it to be ever changing since the Bible isn't the final word. Just a question. No. The Church (at least ours) is guided by The Holy Spirit. It decides doctrine. Whatever we don't know yet is because The Holy Spirit hasn't revealed it to us yet. Man cannot dictate doctrine. Laymen (us, non-clergy people) cannot tell the church what we believe or what should be taught. We are to be led by The Church. |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 2, 2009 9:19:57 GMT -5
It doesn't say get drunk, it says wine...period. It says, it doesn't say... Why don't you post the actual scriptures? |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 2, 2009 9:20:42 GMT -5
It doesn't say get drunk, it says wine...period. Were? And are you ignoring the Scriptures that speaks about wine in a positive way? Yes, given to wine (drunkenness) is a sin. In IC.XC, Ramon Em, what does this mean to you? "given to wine" |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 2, 2009 9:21:57 GMT -5
Ramon, you believe Mary was sinless correct? Do you believe her mother was also sinless? The "good fruit can't come from a bad tree" philosophy Steven holds? Not only that Steven holds, but that Jesus taught! Amen! Do you "not" believe what Jesus taught Emily? Or do you "selectively" apply it to your own personal will? |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 2, 2009 9:22:20 GMT -5
Ramon, you believe Mary was sinless correct? Do you believe her mother was also sinless? The "good fruit can't come from a bad tree" philosophy Steven holds? Who said Mary's parents, Saints Joachim and Anna, were sinless? This has nothing to do with the Ever-Virgin Mary, since God took care of her in a unique way, or rather she cooperate with God. In IC.XC, Ramon Amen! |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 2, 2009 9:23:30 GMT -5
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Post by Cepha on Jul 2, 2009 9:25:48 GMT -5
Oh Ramon...that I think is something you should study out. Way too many verses about wine to go through each one. One that I remember reading recently is John 2:9. The word for wine there was Oinos, which means "fruit of the vine", not fermented. oinos (oy'-nos) 3632 >> A primary word (or perhaps of Hebrew origin (yayin)); "wine" (literally or figuratively) -- wine. strongsnumbers.com/greek/3631.htm |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 2, 2009 9:37:51 GMT -5
According to Cepha: "Jesus' sacrifice did away with "original sin" automatically. So now, we are no longer born sinners. We sin "after" birth. Jesus brought us back in communion with God, but we either remove ourselves from God by our actions or strengthen our relationship with God by our actions. " So waaaaaait a second.... you say Jesus sacrificed himself to do away with 'original sin'...... then what's the whole baptism thing for?!?!??!??!!!? Symbolic of rebirth (as when a child is born, they pass through their mother's womb "after" she has broken her water). Water in scripture (according to Hebrew writing) signifies spirit (as does wind sometimes). No, it does because of Jesus' sacrifice. See? Both can be true and not contradict each other. It is the sacrifice of Christ that gives baptism any legitimacy and value. Understand? Jesus said that unless you are baptized, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 2, 2009 9:54:27 GMT -5
This is a funny forum. I'm reading something that says if there isn't a verse that says Mary sinned, then she didn't sin. There isn't a verse that says I specifically didn't sin, but one that says everyone sinned. How could I be a sinner if my name isn't mentioned specifically? Cepha, did Jesus ride a bike? I think you mentioned that in an analogy before. If there isn't a verse that says he didn't ride a bike, then he must have rode a bike. Apparently what I am learning is that if someone wants something to be true, then you just say that if the bible says nothing against it specifically then it must be true. Then a popular thing to do is jump around direct questions that can't be answered by trying to deflect. It's great for arguments sake I guess because it can go on forever. Alrightee then! Here we go with some of the questions that were "deflected" by you! LOL! 1. Could you post scriptural proof that said Mary sinned? You totally miss the reference. The clean bus has nothing to do with me. It is not transporting me, but my child. So, for my child, I would choose the immaculate bus. This has nothing to do with my sin (or lack thereof). It has to do with which "vessel" God would choose to transport His Son into the world! 2. How could you miss that Toy?3. Tell you what, let's have a scripture study and take each verse one by one...okay?(If a person not being mentioned by name in a scripture was grounds for dissassociating them from it referring to them, oh well, I guess we could throw out all the prophecies in the OT about Jesus too!) Mary was formed in the womb sinless (God forms all of us in the womb). 4. Are you familiar with the teaching that when a man becomes one with a prostitute, her flesh becomes his flesh?5. Would God become one with a sinful woman to produce a sinless man especially since all that man's flesh would come "just" from the woman with no biological father? 6. So, Jesus was a sinner too, huh?We'll start out with those 6 "deflections"! Okay? . Doesn't surprise me that a "man" would choose a dirty bus to send their kids to school. 7. Which do you think God would use?I'd use the same one God would use! The Immaculate Bus! My mistake! 7! |
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Post by biblebeliever100 on Jul 3, 2009 14:00:09 GMT -5
Whoa! A lot went on here! I really had to catch up! LOL
So a few things...
as far as the drinking thing goes... yes it is against God to get drunk as shown by the verses. Has it occured to anyone that wine is made from grapes? God says it is foolish and goes against Him to drink and get drunk, so by comparing scripture with scripture when God says wine it is clear to see that he means a drink made from grapes! Simple! All you have to do is look!
And I also have a question.
As a catholic what is your final authority? The answer to this may give a lot of insight into the topics on this thread!
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