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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 11:34:49 GMT -5
By the way, there is no fuzzy logic about Jesus Christ.
Jesus teachins are either black or white, not gray.
Matter of fact, Peter even teaches that the promise made to parents is simotaneously available to children (else, he would "not" have mentioned them separately).
Acts 2:38-39
38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Aug 7, 2008 12:29:48 GMT -5
I would have to say that Acts 2:39 Clears up the debate!
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 13:02:59 GMT -5
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Post by Cepha on Aug 8, 2008 16:03:53 GMT -5
I would have to say that Acts 2:39 Clears up the debate! It clears nothing up, Peter says this promise is for you and you children and all afar off. The promise is the gift of the Holy Spirit. although it is a gift promised to us, we must accept the gift to receive it. Not everyone that Peter was talking to actually received it, many refused to accept Christ, so not only did they not receive it but neither did their children, and deffently not all afar off accepted the free gift. So by Peter saying the the Holy Ghost is a free gift offered to you and your children in no way confirm infant baptism. I guess the whole "remission of sins" (AKA "salvation) totally escapes your understanding? Oh! I get it! Pick & Choose! Pick & Choose!  |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 8, 2008 20:33:59 GMT -5
I guess the whole "remission of sins" (AKA "salvation) totally escapes your understanding? Oh! I get it! Pick & Choose! Pick & Choose! You do get picking and choosing dont you, you hypocritical heretic.  |
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Post by knuckle on Aug 9, 2008 8:04:58 GMT -5
Hi Cepha--------------
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
the promise was made to all ,adults- children- infants, all of them but to receive it they have to repent(Vs 38) and an infant is not able to do that. The repentance takes place in our own heart and mind it takes an understanding of abstract ideas.
the word translated repent is metanoeō---- it means to change ones mind as a result of new knowledge it consists of (1) a true sense of one's own guilt and sinfulness; (2) an apprehension of God's mercy in Christ; (3) an actual hatred of sin (Psa_119:128; Job_42:5, Job_42:6; 2Co_7:10) and turning from it to God; and (4) a persistent endeavor after a holy life in a walking with God in the way of his commandments.
The true penitent is conscious of guilt (Psa_51:4, Psa_51:9), of pollution (Psa_51:5, Psa_51:7, Psa_51:10), and of helplessness (Psa_51:11; Psa_109:21, Psa_109:22). Thus he apprehends himself to be just what God has always seen him to be and declares him to be,a vessel fitted for destruction. But repentance comprehends not only such a sense of sin, but also an apprehension of mercy, without which there can be no true repentance (Psa_51:1; Psa_130:4).
much love--------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Aug 9, 2008 9:33:56 GMT -5
Hi Cepha-------------- Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. the promise was made to all ,adults- children- infants, all of them but to receive it they have to repent(Vs 38) and an infant is not able to do that. The repentance takes place in our own heart and mind it takes an understanding of abstract ideas. much love--------------knuckle Knuckle, It all boils down to this; do you agree or disagree with the Biblical definition of the word "household" and do you see any instances where children/infants are explicitly excluded from baptism? If children are considered innocent of any sins they might have because they lack the age of reasoning (the basis for the Protestant refusal to baptise children), then how can they be held accountable for their sins? Also, what evidence is there scripturally that children who die before accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord & Savior will not be condemned to eternal damnation? It's just as much a notion as the overwhelming majority of Christianity believing that children (who are under their parents authority) can be baptised (of course, unless it's against that child's will). The facts are this, this "new" belief that children can't be baptized is "not" in the Bible, it was a "new" belief that was invented by sects of Christians and that it is only not practiced by very secific groups. It can be said that it is "not" a traditional Christian practice (because Christians have been baptizing children since the beginning of Christianity. But again, let's here "your" personal definition and compare it to what The Bible defines as "household(s)". Here is the Biblical definition (according to a non-Catholic Christian source): hous’-hold: Three words are usually found in the Bible where the family is indicated. These three are the Hebrew word bayith and the Greek words oikia and oikos. The unit of the national life of Israel, from the very beginning, was found in the family.
In the old patriarchal days each family was complete within itself, the oldest living sire being the unquestioned head of the whole, possessed of almost arbitrary powers. The house and the household are practically synonymous. God had called Abraham "that he might command his children and household after him" (Ge 18:19). The Passover-lamb was to be eaten by the "household" (Ex 12:3). The "households" of the rebels in the camp of Israel shared their doom (Nu 16:31-33; De 11:6). David’s household shares his humiliation (2Sa 15:16); the children everywhere in the Old Testament are the bearers of the sins of the fathers. Human life is not a conglomerate of individuals; the family is its center and unit.
Nor is it different in the New Testament.
The curse and the blessing of the apostles are to abide on a house, according to its attitude (Mt 10:13). A divided house falls (Mr 3:25).
The household believes with the head thereof (Joh 4:53; Ac 16:15,34).
Thus the households became the nuclei for the early life of the church, e.g. the house of Prisca and Aquila at Rome (Ro 16:5), of Stephanas (1Co 16:15), of Onesiphorus (2Ti 1:16), etc. No wonder that the early church made so much of the family life. And in the midst of all our modern, rampant individualism, the family is still the throbbing heart of the church as well as of the nation.
Written by Henry E. Doskercf.blueletterbible.org/Search/Dictionary/viewTopic.cfm?TopicList=11107,48090,48091,48092,48093,48094,48095&Topic=Household&DictID= |
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Post by knuckle on Aug 9, 2008 11:14:05 GMT -5
Cepha-------------
whose Baptism would hey be baptized into?You talk of children dying before accepting Christ but you wetting them has nothing to do with their acceptance.Show me one instance in scripture where one isn't called to believe or repent before baptism.Christ fulfilled the trespass offering along with the sin offering at Calvary.
One must understand the difference in these two offerings to understand why without a shadow of doubt that babies are not in threat of damnation--- the falling short of the flesh is covered by the blood ,no baptism needed to complete it.
much love---------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Aug 9, 2008 11:51:46 GMT -5
Cepha------------- whose Baptism would hey be baptized into? Children? In Jesus' name. I never said it did. Acts 1613 And on the sabbath day we went forth without the gate by a river side, where we supposed there was a place of prayer; and we sat down, and spake unto the women that were come together.
14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple of the city of Thyatira, one that worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened to give heed unto the things which were spoken by Paul.
15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us. But supposedly, Jesus said that if one does "not" believe, they are condenmed, right? Mark 16:16"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."Show me one scripture that says that children are "not" condemned to eternal damnation for "not" believing. Scripture? Pax |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 9, 2008 11:52:53 GMT -5
Knucks,
What do you believe "household" means in The Holy Bible?
Does it include or exclude infants and children?
Pax
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Post by righteousone on Aug 9, 2008 12:57:29 GMT -5
Cepha, it bugs me that your sounding just like a Protestant when you say "just accept Jesus Christ as your PERSONAL Lord and Savior". PERSONAL IS NOT IN THE BIBLE!! It was made up from Luther in 1517..
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Post by Cepha on Aug 9, 2008 13:47:58 GMT -5
Cepha, it bugs me that your sounding just like a Protestant when you say "just accept Jesus Christ as your PERSONAL Lord and Savior". PERSONAL IS NOT IN THE BIBLE!! It was made up from Luther in 1517.. ;D I just say that to "emphasize" their terminology. I know that it doesn't exist in The Bible.  |
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Post by knuckle on Aug 9, 2008 14:32:47 GMT -5
Cepha-------------
I have six children all grown two still at home in my household they can receive the promise because they can understand the concept they heard,they repented they were baptized
I have four grand children two of which are still babies and can not receive the promise because they are too young to repent,the concept is beyond them but they are covered by the sin offering of Jesus given as both offering and High Priest and if they were to die tonight they are guaranteed a place in glory by that sacrifice.
Now knuckle is also covered by the sin offering but I also need to know about the trespass offering because knuckle understands the abstract idea of sin and repentance and know that I am a sinner (some thing the babies can't realize yet)
much love-----------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Aug 9, 2008 15:39:35 GMT -5
Cepha------------- much love-----------knuckle Ok but, What do you believe " household" means in The Holy Bible? Does it include or exclude infants and children?  |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Aug 9, 2008 15:49:28 GMT -5
My household contains me, my husband, and my 2 yr old..
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Post by Cepha on Aug 9, 2008 15:57:01 GMT -5
My household contains me, my husband, and my 2 yr old.. That's also the definition in The Bible as well. I'm trying to get a feel why some Christians believe that children and infants are excluded from baptism when it's stated in The Bible when The Bible doesn't say "baptize households except children and infants". It simply isn't prohibited by The Bible and has been practiced for almost 2,000 years. Baptism is for Christians what Circumcision was for The Jews. And, why were babies circumcized? To bring them into a convenant with God (even though they couldn't choose for themselves). Salvation is a parent's duty. Nor formula existed for what was the "one" way to be saved. Just like Teresa posted, there are several ways to be saved. Not just one. At least, that is what The Bible say...but before this turns into that discussion, I'd like to see what the non-Catholic Christian of "household" in The Bible is. Pax  |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 9, 2008 17:58:53 GMT -5
I am not telling you to not baptized babies, I am telling you it is a meaningless ritual. A baby that is baptized must still, once at the age of understanding, confess Christ themselves to be saved, and a baby that is not baptized will not be damned if they die b4 the age of understanding. If you agree with that statement, which all should, then you have no choice but to agree that baptizing babies is meaningless. What does "household" in the Bible mean to you? |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 9, 2008 18:22:43 GMT -5
...and a baby that is not baptized will not be damned if they die b4 the age of understanding. Is that "in" The Bible? |
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Post by knuckle on Aug 9, 2008 18:28:49 GMT -5
Hi Cepha---------------
read Mark 16:16; Acts 8:37; Romans 10:10-11; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Ephesians 1:21
and then read
Matthew 12:36; Romans 14:12; 1 Peter 2:7; 4:5; 1 John 3:23
much love---------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Aug 9, 2008 18:31:41 GMT -5
Hi Cepha--------------- read Mark 16:16; Acts 8:37; Romans 10:10-11; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Ephesians 1:21 and then read Matthew 12:36; Romans 14:12; 1 Peter 2:7; 4:5; 1 John 3:23 much love---------knuckle
Does it include or exclude infants and children? |
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