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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 16:34:42 GMT -5
If so, provide the scriptures.
;D
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jacee
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by jacee on Apr 7, 2008 23:19:46 GMT -5
Are you deleting posts Cepha?
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 23:25:13 GMT -5
Are you deleting posts Cepha? No. Why? |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Jun 29, 2008 23:01:54 GMT -5
we dont pray to the "dead" like my dad to go do something for me... besides they are alive in heavan.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2008 23:33:31 GMT -5
we dont pray to the "dead" like my dad to go do something for me... besides they are alive in heavan. According to them, Jesus talked to the dead when He talked to Moses and Elijah (at least they believe Moses was dead). Remember the transfiguration? When Jesus told Lazarus and the little girl to rise when they were dead, he was talking to dead people. It's all over The Bible. One just has to actually "read" The Bible.  |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2008 23:34:54 GMT -5
And the Bible doesn't prohibit praying to The Saints.
Ever.
No one's ever posted one scripture that forbids praying to The Saints.
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Post by righteousone on Jul 12, 2008 6:12:50 GMT -5
And no one ever will either.  |
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Post by knuckle on Jul 12, 2008 9:43:51 GMT -5
No where in the bible are we forbidden to ask for intercessory payer from a pack of pork chops or a bologna sandwich but the result is the same
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
why?
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
so we pray how?
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
in whose name and authority?
Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Joh 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
Joh 11:41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
Joh 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
much love------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Jul 12, 2008 11:35:28 GMT -5
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Post by knuckle on Jul 12, 2008 12:28:39 GMT -5
In John 6 there are promises to believers by Christ Himself lets take a look at the time table
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
much love--------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Aug 6, 2008 9:26:00 GMT -5
No where in the bible are we forbidden to ask for intercessory payer from a pack of pork chops or a bologna sandwich but the result is the same 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; why? Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. so we pray how? Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. in whose name and authority? Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. Joh 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: Joh 11:41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. Joh 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. much love------------knuckle awesome post, not only was it truthful, but wildly hilarious as well!! What he did there was to take a fragment of a verse here, a fragment of a verse from a completely different book and combined them to "create" a belief that simply doesn't exist in scripture (like Satan did in the desert when he too would combine scriptures from different passages out of context to try to fool Jesus). I guess you missed the post where I showed him that a mediator and an intercessor are two different things. Intercessory prayer is not only allowed, but it is encouraged by The Word of God and not only that, it actually pleases God. Mediation between God and man has nothing to do with intercession between God and man. Jesus can intercede, but humans cannot mediate. Big difference in the two...so it still remains...no where in The Bible is it forbidden to request intercessions from The Saints which are in Heaven praying for us anyway.  This is why Protestants NEVER quote 1 Tim in it's entire context because it would contradict what they believe. Let's take 1 Tim "in context": 1 Timothy 2 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Pretty cool! |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 6, 2008 9:27:39 GMT -5
And...no where in The Bible is praying to The Saints for intercession forbidden.
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Post by Cepha on Aug 6, 2008 11:08:01 GMT -5
And...no where in The Bible is praying to The Saints for intercession forbidden. Nor does the Bible forbid baptizing babies, but both are religious ritual, that accomplish absolutely nothing. If you want to continue in vain and useless practices, I don't see why others people care. But baptizing babies is actually practiced in The Bible. So it is "not" a fact that it is forbidden. To baptize a "household" is to baptize anyone in any given family from infant to elder. No where is infant baptism forbidden when baptizing a household is mentioned in the NT. And, Jesus told us that we were not to keep children from Him. If we go to Him through baptism, why keep children from Him through baptism (rhetorical question of course). Yes, I will continue to do what is acceptable and pleasing to God by asking for intercessions from the Saints that are praying in Heaven. Jesus talked to The Saints from Heaven in his Transfiguration. And we will continue to bring children to Christ through baptism to cleanse them of their original sin. Jesus would say that baptism does accomplish much. And prayer is "not" a ritual. Amen!   |
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Post by knuckle on Aug 6, 2008 11:40:59 GMT -5
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
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Post by Cepha on Aug 6, 2008 22:27:58 GMT -5
You cannot show one case of a child being baptized in scripture. Futher more you know you cannot. For you to say it is Biblical is more than a mistake, it is open deception. Shame on you.  Infant Baptism Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 - these texts show the circumcision of eight-day old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant - Col 2:11-12 - however, baptism is the new "circumcision" for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant. To the contrary, He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults. Job 14:1-4 - man that is born of woman is full of trouble and unclean. Baptism is required for all human beings because of our sinful human nature. Psalm 51:5 - we are conceived in the iniquity of sin. This shows the necessity of baptism from conception. Matt. 18:2-5 - Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. So why would children be excluded from baptism? Matt 19:14 - Jesus clearly says the kingdom of heaven also belongs to children. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism. Mark 10:14 - Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. Jesus says nothing about being too young to come into the kingdom of God. Mark 16:16 - Jesus says to the crowd, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." But in reference to the same people, Jesus immediately follows with "He who does not believe will be condemned." This demonstrates that one can be baptized and still not be a believer. This disproves the Protestant argument that one must be a believer to be baptized. There is nothing in the Bible about a "believer's baptism." Luke 18:15 – Jesus says, “Let the children come to me.” The people brought infants to Jesus that he might touch them. This demonstrates that the receipt of grace is not dependent upon the age of reason. Acts 2:38 - Peter says to the multitude, "Repent and be baptized.." Protestants use this verse to prove one must be a believer (not an infant) to be baptized. But the Greek translation literally says, "If you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized” (“Metanoesate kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.”) This, contrary to what Protestants argue, actually proves that babies are baptized based on their parents’ faith. This is confirmed in the next verse. Acts 2:39 - Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults. “Those far off” refers to those who were at their “homes” (primarily infants and children). God's covenant family includes children. The word "children" that Peter used comes from the Greek word "teknon" which also includes infants. Luke 1:59 - this proves that "teknon" includes infants. Here, John as a "teknon" (infant) was circumcised. See also Acts 21:21 which uses “teknon” for eight-day old babies. So baptism is for infants as well as adults. Acts 10:47-48 - Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius, which generally included infants and young children. There is not one word in Scripture about baptism being limited to adults. Acts 16:15 - Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word "household" comes from the Greek word "oikos" which is a household that includes infants and children. Acts 16:15 - further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia's faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents' faith, not the children's faith. Acts 16:30-33 - it was only the adults who were candidates for baptism that had to profess a belief in Jesus. This is consistent with the Church's practice of instructing catechumens before baptism. But this verse does not support a "believer's baptism" requirement for everyone. See Acts 16:15,33. The earlier one comes to baptism, the better. For those who come to baptism as adults, the Church has always required them to profess their belief in Christ. For babies who come to baptism, the Church has always required the parents to profess the belief in Christ on behalf of the baby. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about a requirement for ALL baptism candidates to profess their own belief in Christ (because the Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years). Acts 16:33 - Paul baptized the jailer (an adult) and his entire household (which had to include children). Baptism is never limited to adults and those of the age of reason. See also Luke 19:9; John 4:53; Acts 11:14; 1 Cor. 1:16; and 1 Tim. 3:12; Gen. 31:41; 36:6; 41:51; Joshua 24:15; 2 Sam. 7:11, 1 Chron. 10:6 which shows “oikos” generally includes children. Rom. 5:12 - sin came through Adam and death through sin. Babies' souls are affected by Adam's sin and need baptism just like adult souls. Rom. 5:15 - the grace of Jesus Christ surpasses that of the Old Covenant. So children can also enter the new Covenant in baptism. From a Jewish perspective, it would have been unthinkable to exclude infants and children from God's Covenant kingdom. 1 Cor. 1:16 - Paul baptized the household ("oikos") of Stephanus. Baptism is not limited to adults. Eph. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - Paul addresses the "saints" of the Church, and these include the children he addresses in Eph. 6:1 and Col. 3:20. Children become saints of the Church only through baptism. Eph. 2:3 - we are all by nature children of wrath, in sin, like all mankind. Infants are no exception. See also Psalm 51:5 and Job 14:1-4 which teach us we are conceived in sin and born unclean. 2 Thess. 3:10 - if anyone does not work let him not eat. But this implies that those who are unable to work should still be able to eat. Babies should not starve because they are unable to work, and should also not be denied baptism because they are unable to make a declaration of faith. Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:3-5 - the faith of those who brought in the paralytic cured the paralytic's sins. This is an example of the forgiveness of sins based on another's faith, just like infant baptism. The infant child is forgiven of sin based on the parents' faith. Matt. 8:5-13 - the servant is healed based upon the centurion's faith. This is another example of healing based on another's faith. If Jesus can heal us based on someone else’s faith, then He can baptize us based on someone else’s faith as well. Mark 9:22-25 - Jesus exercises the child's unclean spirit based on the father's faith. This healing is again based on another's faith. 1 Cor. 7:14 – Paul says that children are sanctified by God through the belief of only one of their parents. Exodus 12:24-28 - the Passover was based on the parent's faith. If they did not kill and eat the lamb, their first-born child died. Joshua 5:2-7 - God punished Israel because the people had not circumcised their children. This was based on the parent's faith. The parents play a critical role in their child's salvation. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 6, 2008 23:25:23 GMT -5
Once again, although you gave a good job of posturing, not one of these many scripture says that a child was baptized, you are a deceiver. Which one said a child was "not" baptized? As a matter of fact, can you find "one"? I have posted scriptures that state literally that households were baptized and that includes infants. You don't have to accept The Word of God as written if you don't want to, but that doesn't change the fact that it is still there. To baptize a household is to baptize infants to elders. Not figuratively, not symbollically, but literally. No room for personal interpretation there...just too much pride to admit it and the refusal of accepting scripture as written. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 6, 2008 23:31:10 GMT -5
Some of these scripture are right out lies, such as 2nd Thessalonians 3:10 You say it says. 2 Thess. 3:10 - if anyone does not work let him not eat. But this implies that those who are unable to work should still be able to eat. Babies should not starve because they are unable to work, and should also not be denied baptism because they are unable to make a declaration of faith. The Bible says. 2nd Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we command you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. You have either blatantly lied or copied and pasted something you should have researched b4 representing it as truth. A) That's obviously copied and pasted ( www.ScriptureCatholic.com ) B) Where is the lie there? It literally says that if any "would" not work. This clearly implies that those that don't work by their own choice (not by inability). So, where is the lie there? Infants cannot feed themselves. Plain fact. Should they be left to starve? So, you are the one who is lieing by calling that post a lie. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 6, 2008 23:44:01 GMT -5
Further more any child that is baptized and does not accept Christ as their own personal when they are old enough to understand salvation will not get into heaven. And what age is that? Is that "scriptural" or your own personal belief? Can you provide a scripture to support that?
Matthew 19:14"Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven" John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!"Do you see a provision for children there? How can The Kingdom of Heaven belong to children except one be born of water and the Spirit?  |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 11:28:33 GMT -5
The Bible says ''believe'' and be baptized, being baptized is not good enough there has to be belief on the part of the one being baptized. An infant is incapable of believing therefore there baptism is meaningless. The Bible says believe and be saved for adults. It doesn't either metion infants and it definitely doesn't exclude them (as some "modern" Christians decided to start doing when they created their own religions after the 16th Century). Of course not. In fact, Jesus says that heaven belongs to children, so how could the be condemned to hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord & Savior? This completely contradicts the belief that one "has" to believe to be allowed entry into heaven. If children don't believe (as you say), then you must admit non-Believers can get into heaven. All victims of murder go to heaven (even if they are in sin when they die because only God can take a life...if one's life is taken before they can reconcile themselves to God, it is not their fault.). |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 11:32:32 GMT -5
Which one said a child was "not" baptized? You gave scripture that you say proves infants were baptized. Yet none of those many, many scriptures says that any baby was ever baptized. You gave the proof text, and then say because they didn't say babies were not baptized, means that they were. That is a long leap in the dark to come to that conclusion. That's because you refuse to accept the definition of the word "household" in The Bible. Once you begin to reject what is written, then "not" believing in what's written in The Bible becomes possible. You don't believe that the word "household" includes infants, right? And, no where in The Bible is infant baptism forbidden. You would believe that Jesus would accept a conviced thief that never accepted Jesus as his personal Lord & Savior into heaven before allowing an infant to be baptized, right? |
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