Does The Holy Bible prohibit praying to The Saints

[Cepha]

And all those Church Fathers must be wrong?

[knuckle]

If they taught that baptism takes the place of Jesus finished work on the cross then yes Brother they are

[Cepha]

Aug 10, 2008 14:02:40 GMT -5 knuckle said:

If they taught that baptism takes the place of Jesus finished work on the cross then yes Brother they are

So how could you trust them for The Bible since they decided which books would compromise The New Testament?

Would God use men that taught false Christian doctrine to decide what books would make up what is to be considered the inspired Word of God?

[Cepha]

Aug 10, 2008 14:02:40 GMT -5 knuckle said:

If they taught that baptism takes the place of Jesus finished work on the cross then yes Brother they are

"takes the place of Jesus finished work on the cross"

What does that mean in relation to infant baptism?

[knuckle]

Cepha--------------

the idea that baptism is some how needed to blot out original sin is wrong,Jesus was all the offerings of the old testament,He fulfilled them including the sin offering once and for all.

if infant baptism was a baptism into the CC what I believe the Greek Orthodox call a Christening then it would not be that big a deal but this doctrine of God condemning infants for original sin speaks against Christ as the Lamb and the High Priest.

much love------------------knuckle

[knuckle]

Oh and I credit God with preserving His word

who convinced Jonah to go to Nineveh,God or the whale?

[Cepha]

Aug 10, 2008 14:22:09 GMT -5 knuckle said:

Cepha--------------

the idea that baptism is some how needed to blot out original sin is wrong,

Baptism makes one a Christian.
Jesus was baptizing before He died.

Original sin is cleared away for all mankind (bapitzed or not).

Jesus was all the offerings of the old testament,He fulfilled them including the sin offering once and for all.

You mean OSAS?

Or it is like credit for a Believer's future sins?

Is that belief "in" The Bible?

if infant baptism was a baptism into the CC what I believe the Greek Orthodox call a Christening then it would not be that big a deal but this doctrine of God condemning infants for original sin speaks against Christ as the Lamb and the High Priest.

Catholics don't get baptized into the Catholic Church.

We get baptized into Christianity (which is the only Biblical definition of baptism). That's why when Protestants become Catholics, they don't have to get "re-baptized".

Only non-Catholics have to re-baptize when they change sects.

For universal Christians, there is only universal baptism
(not denominational baptism).

[Cepha]

Aug 10, 2008 14:24:59 GMT -5 knuckle said:

Oh and I credit God with preserving His word

who convinced Jonah to go to Nineveh,God or the whale?

How did God preserve His word?

By choosing the right men to reveal His Word.

Which again leads to the question...do you believe that God would choose men who believe contrary to what you believe to reveal His Word?

Is it your belief that God chose men who were preaching Heresy to create The Bible?

Not off-topic because it goes to the subject of authority and on "who" God chose to teach...us? Or our religious leaders (remember The Apostles)?

Irenaeus (c. 130–202) speaks not only of children but even of infants being "born again to God"[10] and three passages of Origen (185–c. 254)[11] mention infant baptism as traditional and customary.[12]

Tertullian (c. 155–230) too, while advising postponement of baptism until after marriage, mentions that it was customary to baptise infants, with sponsors speaking on their behalf.[13] The Apostolic Tradition, attributed to Hippolytus of Rome (died 235), describes how to perform the ceremony of baptism; it states that children were baptised first, and if any of them could not answer for themselves, their parents or someone else from their family was to answer for them.[14]


Here's a "reasonable" assessment of the issue from a non-religious source:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_baptism#Household_baptisms

Household baptisms
In the Old Testament, if the head of a household converted to Judaism, all the males in the house, even the infants, were circumcised. Paedobaptists argue this pattern continues into the New Testament. Reference is made, for example, to baptizing a person and their whole household – the households of Lydia, Crispus, and Stephanas are mentioned by name Acts 16:14-15, 18:8; 1 Cor 1:16.

Paedobaptists challenge credobaptists on this point: Why would a whole household be baptized just because the head of the house had faith? Shouldn’t they baptize each member of the family as they come to individual faith? Household baptism implies that the rules for membership in Abraham's covenant have continued into the New Testament, the main difference is the sign of the covenant.

Credobaptists counter with verses such as John 4:53, Acts 16:34 and Acts 18:8 in which entire households are said to have "believed". As such, the paedobaptist assumption is that household baptisms mentioned in the Bible involved infants, presumably incapable of personal belief.


Original sin
Paedobaptists also point to Psalm 51, which reads, in part, "surely I was sinful from birth," as indication that infants are sinful (vid. original sin) and are thus in need of forgiveness that they too might have salvation.

Credobaptists would admit that infants are in need of salvation but paedobaptists push the point a step further by arguing that it makes no theological sense for infants to need salvation but for God to make no provision for them to be saved. Some Credobaptists who agree to the Psalm 51 interpretation, argue that even though infants are sinful they are not accountable, because of the "age of accountability". Although many theologians would argue that an "age of accountability" is nowhere mentioned in the Bible.

An alternative viewpoint of some credobaptists is that since all Christians are predestined to salvation (John 15:16, 1Cor 1:27, Eph 1:4, 1Pet 2:4), God will not allow His elect to die before receiving their need, even if they are in old age (Luke 2:25-35), an argument whose relation to baptism whether of infants or adults is unclear, unless it means that infants who die without coming to explicit belief and baptism are not among God's elect.


Peter's Speech
According to the Book of Acts in the New Testament, Peter declared in his sermon to the Jews that they should all be baptized. They and their children, and everyone whom God calls, no matter how far away.

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off–for all whom the Lord our God will call.” (Acts 2:38-39, NIV)

[Cepha]

If we are born "sinful from birth", then how can an infant who doesn't accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord & Savior?

[Cepha]

And which reflects the events in The Bible more?

That Jesus died for all man unconditionally for original sin and that his sacrifice was a "gift" (requiring no repayment)?

Or that we have to barter with Christ for that "gift" (therefore, requiring us to work for it/AKA "trade belief and confession for salvation")?

[knuckle]

Hi Capha------------------

gonna discuss universal salvation with a universalist? Ok Bro. where you wanna start?The sovereignty of God?Why sin came into the world?The wages of Sin?The Man of Sin?Babylon?Salvation?Sonship?the fulfilling of the OT in Jesus? We can make a hundred threads if you like........

but the short answer is Jesus was the sin offering that is the offering made by the High Priest (Jesus) for the sin of being in the flesh Original sin is covered by the blood for all those who don't realize they are in sin---this includes babes---it is offered by the High Priest to cover the people who have sinned in ignorance with out knowing what sin is.

That is why there are both the sin offering and the trespass offering

much love-----------------knuckle

[Cepha]

Aug 10, 2008 15:33:18 GMT -5 knuckle said:

Hi Capha------------------

gonna discuss universal salvation with a universalist? Ok Bro. where you wanna start?The sovereignty of God?Why sin came into the world?The wages of Sin?The Man of Sin?Babylon?Salvation?Sonship?the fulfilling of the OT in Jesus? We can make a hundred threads if you like........

but the short answer is Jesus was the sin offering that is the offering made by the High Priest (Jesus) for the sin of being in the flesh Original sin is covered by the blood for all those who don't realize they are in sin---this includes babes---it is offered by the High Priest to cover the people who have sinned in ignorance with out knowing what sin is.

That is why there are both the sin offering and the trespass offering

much love-----------------knuckle

I'll start with this...universal salvation is just that...salvation for all.

That is, from "original sin" with regards to Jesus' sacrifice.

[knuckle]

all sin by Christ's sacrifice

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially(but not exclusively) of those that believe.

[Cepha]

Aug 10, 2008 16:27:52 GMT -5 knuckle said:

all sin by Christ's sacrifice

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially(but not exclusively) of those that believe.

What is this a response to?

[knuckle]

You said ----I'll start with this...universal salvation is just that...salvation for all.

That is, from "original sin" with regards to Jesus' sacrifice.

I replied ----all sin by Christ's sacrifice

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially(but not exclusively) of those that believe.

[Cepha]

Aug 10, 2008 17:58:24 GMT -5 knuckle said:

You said ----I'll start with this...universal salvation is just that...salvation for all.

That is, from "original sin" with regards to Jesus' sacrifice.

I replied ----all sin by Christ's sacrifice

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially(but not exclusively) of those that believe.

Whoa! Don't let Watchman see that!

;D

[knuckle]

;D

[knuckle]

Good morning watchman----------------

yes I am

but life isn't monopoly,there are no get out of hell free cards.

much love---------------knuckle

[Cepha]

Aug 10, 2008 18:37:13 GMT -5 Cepha said:

Aug 10, 2008 17:58:24 GMT -5 knuckle said:

You said ----I'll start with this...universal salvation is just that...salvation for all.

That is, from "original sin" with regards to Jesus' sacrifice.

I replied ----all sin by Christ's sacrifice

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially(but not exclusively) of those that believe.

You know something Knucks?

I really like that passage:


1 Timothy 4
1 But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons,

Latter times? Post Apostolic times meaning any Christians that do not adhere to what The Apostles taught and who reject those that The Apostles taught and those that they passed on The Apostles teaching to and so on (like Polycarp, Ignatius, etc...).

2 through the hypocrisy of men that speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron;

Obviously by those houses built upon sand (churches started by men and "not" by those that followes Apostolic teachings). Those based on the personal interpretations of individuals.

3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by them that believe and know the truth.

With the word "hypocrisy", coming before the 3rd verse, it's obvious that this is about married men telling unmarried men to not get married (to remain single). If the men telling unmarried men to not marry were married themselves, then the word hypocrisy would'nt apply.

Abstaining from meats? Obviously a liberation of Jewish tradition for Christians. This is separating the Christian Church from The Jewish Religion.

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it be received with thanksgiving:

The breakaway from traditional Judaism that placed restrictions on what could be consumed.

5 for it is sanctified through the word of God and prayer.

What is sanctified? Freedom to consume everything that was once forbidden.

6 If thou put the brethren in mind of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished in the words of the faith, and of the good doctrine which thou hast followed until now:

Here, clear evidence again (as I've always said) that Paul is addressing Church Leaders.

Again, he is soundly defending the importance of structured beliefs and teachings...doctrine.

Paul as all about well ordered and disciplined teachings (doctrine).

7 but refuse profane and old wives' fables. And exercise thyself unto godliness:

Here he teaches them to stick to reasonable beliefs and to refrain from those teachings that obviously counter Apostolic teachings.

8 for bodily exercise is profitable for a little; but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life which now is, and of that which is to come.

Balance of one attending their spiritual needs as well as their physical needs.

9 Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation.

What is about to be said is confirmable and trustworthy...

10 For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe.

It is absolutely clear that all men are saved. But from what? From perpetual sin? Can't be since we are told that sinners cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. So from what? From original sin. That sin could be paid for because it is an event that happened already and Jesus could die for that one sin because it was the one sin that encompassed us all. By wiping out one man's sin, God redeemed us all.

11 These things command and teach.

Again, proof that he is talking to Church Leaders because only they have the authority to teach and to command....

12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example to them that believe, in word, in manner of life, in love, in faith, in purity.

Plain and simply, walk it like you talk it. Don't preach Christ, yet act unChristlike.

13 Till I come, give heed to reading, to exhortation, to teaching.

Encouraging that they stick to the constant studying of scripture and to focus on their tasks (which should only be one thing...preaching).

14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

This is a clear indication that these men he is talking to are ordained Priests (not the common community). "Presbytery" literally means an organized body of religious leaders (The Church Leaders).

15 Be diligent in these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy progress may be manifest unto all.

Here, he tells them to remain faithful to Apostolic teachings and that they live as examples to the flock.

16 Take heed to thyself, and to thy teaching. Continue in these things; for in doing this thou shalt save both thyself and them that hear thee.

It's undeniable Paul is addressing Church Leaders here and that these teachings are separate from the laymen.

[cradlecathlic27]

If everyone went to Heaven, then there would be no hell...