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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 1, 2008 16:43:43 GMT -5
Oh I love Muslims...I just hate Islam. :) Love the people, hate the false religion. Just because we label it a false religion because they do not believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ does not justify us to hate it. If we are so inclined, we may study it and keep the good ("hold fast to what is good", says our Holy Scriptures), granted that we may not fall into error. If we fear to fall into error, or if we feel no necessity at all on studying the good things of the Qu'ran (they, too, have the same God [God the Father, that is]), then let us not read it, but not ridicule it, especially since it would be hypocritical to condamn something we are not familiar with. The Qu'ran says "before shooting the arrow of truth, dip it on honey", which is a wise saying, not in contrary with any article of faith nor a single verse in ourr Holy Scriptures. We can benefit from such saying, or we may leave it alone. No need for hate. Just know your ground, stand solid in the ground of God's Truth, be able to present it to others, to defend it from evil, and to call out the errors of other religions. All this without the need of hate. :) Pax Christi. |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 1, 2008 21:29:19 GMT -5
The Nicoleateans (sp) was/is a false religion, God said He hated and the people written about in the letter hated it too. So, we can hate false religions...we just can't hate the people  |
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 2, 2008 0:44:59 GMT -5
Do you really think the all-loving God hates?
Isn't this just another way of speaking in human terms about God?
Consider in the Old Testament where many times (such as the Flood or when God is about to wage war) God is said to have "repented" ("God repented of making man", etc.) or changed His mind...
Isn't God all-knowing? Why would He "repent" and/or change His mind?
In the same way, I believe, God "hates" the Nicolatians of Revelation (even though not much is known by them, clearly spoken of by the Apostle John not as a condemnation of the sect [certainly it wasn't a thread since their teachings are not even recorded in the writings of the early Church and the Church Fathers who mention them are vague], but more as a symbol, such as the 7 churches representing the whole Christian Church, and each church representing a fault and danger that the whole Church had/has).
God dislikes their heresy, their bad works, but remember that the Nicolatians are people, with the heresy being named differently.
There is a difference between Nicolaism* and the Nicolaitans, just as there is a difference in saying that you hate Islam and that you hate Muslims, or that Nitzche hates Christianity and that he hates Christians.
Furthermore, note that Rev 2:6 says that those in that particular church, at Ephesus, hate the *practices* of the Nicolaitans, [practices] which God also hates.
So you may hate the false teachings and evil practices in a religion, say Islam and its false teachings about Jesus and the radical Muslims who kill in the name of "God", but the religion itself should not be hated.
:)
Pax Christi,
Juan J.
--------
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolationism
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 2, 2008 7:09:40 GMT -5
Do you really think the all-loving God hates?
Revelation 2:6
But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
Revelation 2:15
So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate. |
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 2, 2008 15:07:16 GMT -5
Yes, God hates false religion...and frankly, so do I, lol.
Revelation 2:6
But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
Revelation 2:15
So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.[/quote] Re-read my post above because you are missing the point. (About the ALL-LOVING God hating) Also note, "But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate." and, "So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate." He hates the *deeds* (or practices according the the RSV) and the *doctrine*, He says nothing of the religion itself. He hates these just as He would hate any evil deed by a Christian, though He would dislike this even more. --- Nonetheless, even if it is a false religion there is still truths in it, and even if what they say about Mary may not be theologically true or correct (that I don't know), they still respect her even though they are not Christians. They respect the Mother more than the "prophet" This should be a great example to some Protestants who dishonor Mary... Especially since the Reformers honored her as well. The very starters of Protestantism honored her. The Muslims have the same Yahweh/Allah as we do. Perhaps their conception is different than ours, but they still honor Our Lady. If they have the same God, they may also accept the Old Testament. You should read Proverbs 31:28-31 and see how this honor is justified even in the Old Testament. Pax Christi. Juan J.
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 2, 2008 15:12:15 GMT -5
Lol, it means religion...you can't have a doctrine and do deeds without it being a religion. All false religions are run by demons..I'm sure God doesn't care for that too much. |
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 3, 2008 0:39:04 GMT -5
Lol, it means religion...you can't have a doctrine and do deeds without it being a religion. So Christianity IS a religion.  And no, that's not what Revelation says. It does *not* say that God hates the religion itself. He may hate its consequences (leads people to the truth), but He won't hate everything in it. Nonetheless, Islam does not contain all truth and contains many falsehoods, but they honor Mary in a way that many of today's Protestants don't. Did you read Proverbs 31? |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 3, 2008 7:34:22 GMT -5
If a religion is lead by demons and teaches falsehoods, why wouldn't God hate it...?
So..since Islam honors Mary yet denies Christ as the Messiah it is ok?
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 3, 2008 11:02:16 GMT -5
I dont think you are getting the point again.... he is saying that even unchristian people love Mary, so its not such a bad thing to love her. He is in NO way saying that it is ok to love Mary and not Christ. Open your head up girl!
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 3, 2008 14:26:34 GMT -5
I love Mary like I love any other sister/brother in Christ. I don't love Mary to the extent that I love Jesus. I never said it was a bad thing to love her or respect her.
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 3, 2008 14:29:48 GMT -5
Im glad to know that Baptists Love and Honor Mary like our own mothers ;D
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 3, 2008 14:31:12 GMT -5
Wait, what?
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 3, 2008 14:31:48 GMT -5
sorry, my thoughts in my head were jumbled
lol
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 3, 2008 15:50:54 GMT -5
Emily, Marcie said this because we can call Mary our Mother, and love her as such.
Mary is our Mother:
1. Revelation speaks of the Dragon persecuting the Woman (who is Israel, the Church, and Mary), and when she is given the wings of the Great Eagle, St. John tells us that the Dragon "went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus."
2. On the Cross Jesus gives Mary to His beloved disciple, and the disciple "took her into his home." Jesus says, "John [or son], behold your mother", and countless of commentators say that John represents the Church.
3. Proverbs 31:28, which I assume you read since I requested it twice, says
"Her children rise up and call her blessed", which perfectly goes with Mary's "all generations will call me blessed" (Luke 1:48), showing that we are that generation that "rise up and call her blessed"
I will make a new Thread in "Ave Maria" about Mary being our Mother. Direct further comments about it to that thread.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 3, 2008 18:16:46 GMT -5
No, they don't belittle Mary, they only kill christians in the name of allah.  Why don't you start up a thread on killing in the name of God? I definately think that that would be an appropriate place for a sentiment like that. Of course, you do know that we will also have to answer for the times that Christians have killed in the name of God as well. But hey...I'm all open to discuss that. This thread is for what we share with them. They love Mary. And believe it or not, they have a great deal of respect for Catholic Christians. They really have no beef with us. If we look at recent history (over the past hundred years or so), they've had no reason to hate us specifically out of Christianity. And true Muslims don't believe what radical Muslims preach. Just like Christianity, there are the tried and true Christians and Muslims and then there are the fundamentalist Christians and Muslims. I doubt highly that those same Muslims that kill Christians love Mary anyway. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 3, 2008 18:19:09 GMT -5
Hi Cepha-------------- I wanted to share this with folks who are not familiar with the Quran.I do this not to ridicule or divide but to point out how Christ is viewed in the book. 9: 30. And the Jews say, `Ezra is the son of ALLAH,' and the Christians say, `the Messiah is the son of ALLAH;' that is what they say with their mouths. They only imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before them. ALLAH's curse be on them ! How they are turned away. 9: 31. They have taken their priest and their monks for lords besides ALLAH. And so have they taken the Messiah, son of Mary. And they were not commanded but to worship the One God. There is no God but HE. Holy is HE far above what they associate with Him ! You see that ?The quran teaches that if you believe Jesus to be the Son of God a curse be upon you? much love ----------knuckle Hey Knuckle! Welcome to "our" board! Now, on the topic of how Muslims view Jesus, by all means, start a thread and I'll be happy to join you there. I believe they see Him as 2nd or as an equal to Mohammed. But let's leave that for the thread that you start. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 3, 2008 18:22:26 GMT -5
Notice that Cephas is not endorsing the Qu'ran. He is respecting just as it respects Our Lady. They, who are not Christian (and even anti-Christian in a sense), respect the Mother of God, while some of those who call themselves Christian diminish her and dishonor her. Not even the Apostles did this, and the early Church surely honored her. Pax Christi, Juan J. Thank you Juan. Yes...let's keep on the focus of the thread and if anybody wants to digress to another conversation, you all have the power to start up a thread where you can focus on why you do or don't agree or disagree with Islam/Muslims, etc... Yes, Muslims loves and reveres Mary. 85% of Christianity loves and reveres Mary. I think that that is a good thing to have in common. A good start to other things that we can discuss. They also love Jesus as well, but again, that's another thread. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 3, 2008 18:24:45 GMT -5
Oh I love Muslims...I just hate Islam. :) Love the people, hate the false religion. Just because we label it a false religion because they do not believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ does not justify us to hate it. If we are so inclined, we may study it and keep the good ("hold fast to what is good", says our Holy Scriptures), granted that we may not fall into error. If we fear to fall into error, or if we feel no necessity at all on studying the good things of the Qu'ran (they, too, have the same God [God the Father, that is]), then let us not read it, but not ridicule it, especially since it would be hypocritical to condamn something we are not familiar with. The Qu'ran says "before shooting the arrow of truth, dip it on honey", which is a wise saying, not in contrary with any article of faith nor a single verse in ourr Holy Scriptures. We can benefit from such saying, or we may leave it alone. No need for hate. Just know your ground, stand solid in the ground of God's Truth, be able to present it to others, to defend it from evil, and to call out the errors of other religions. All this without the need of hate. :) Pax Christi. Christians would be surprised at how much Islam is based on Christianity. Mohammed's uncle who was supposedly very influential on him was a very devout Christian. An unignorable amount of Islam matches Christianity almost word for word. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 3, 2008 18:29:50 GMT -5
Lol, it means religion...you can't have a doctrine and do deeds without it being a religion. All false religions are run by demons..I'm sure God doesn't care for that too much. I wouldn't blame all false religions on demons. I believe some were started by prideful men. Remember, Satan didn't force Eve & Adam to disobey God. He merely suggested it. Ultimately, they chose to fall. But again, I know I've been away for a while and I may be late in the conversation, but let's stick to the subject here...Muslim love for Mary along with the overwhelming majority of Cristians who love her. Let's leave out the hate and false and all those negative terms and stick to the positive words of share and love. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 3, 2008 18:31:43 GMT -5
If a religion is lead by demons and teaches falsehoods, why wouldn't God hate it...? So..since Islam honors Mary yet denies Christ as the Messiah it is ok? Is Islam ok for denying the divinity of Christ? Off topic. Is it ok for loving Jesus' mother? Yes...in that instance, it is ok. |
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