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Post by Cepha on Apr 3, 2008 18:32:52 GMT -5
sorry, my thoughts in my head were jumbled lol I think you were referring to Revelations 12:17. ;D |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 3, 2008 18:34:17 GMT -5
Emily, Marcie said this because we can call Mary our Mother, and love her as such. Mary is our Mother: 1. Revelation speaks of the Dragon persecuting the Woman (who is Israel, the Church, and Mary), and when she is given the wings of the Great Eagle, St. John tells us that the Dragon "went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus." 2. On the Cross Jesus gives Mary to His beloved disciple, and the disciple "took her into his home." Jesus says, "John [or son], behold your mother", and countless of commentators say that John represents the Church. 3. Proverbs 31:28, which I assume you read since I requested it twice, says "Her children rise up and call her blessed", which perfectly goes with Mary's "all generations will call me blessed" (Luke 1:48), showing that we are that generation that "rise up and call her blessed" I will make a new Thread in "Ave Maria" about Mary being our Mother. Direct further comments about it to that thread.  |
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riven
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Post by riven on Apr 9, 2008 10:43:16 GMT -5
No, they don't belittle Mary, they only kill christians in the name of allah.  And christians killed pagans and pagans killed barbarians everyone destroys what they are not. its the way of nature. |
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riven
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Post by riven on Apr 9, 2008 10:45:40 GMT -5
Hi Cepha-------------- I wanted to share this with folks who are not familiar with the Quran.I do this not to ridicule or divide but to point out how Christ is viewed in the book. 9: 30. And the Jews say, `Ezra is the son of ALLAH,' and the Christians say, `the Messiah is the son of ALLAH;' that is what they say with their mouths. They only imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before them. ALLAH's curse be on them ! How they are turned away. 9: 31. They have taken their priest and their monks for lords besides ALLAH. And so have they taken the Messiah, son of Mary. And they were not commanded but to worship the One God. There is no God but HE. Holy is HE far above what they associate with Him ! You see that ?The quran teaches that if you believe Jesus to be the Son of God a curse be upon you? much love ----------knuckle Wrong, what this passage teaches is that if you believe Jesus to BE God then a curse upon you. They acknowledge he was touched by the divine and they acknowledge mary was touched by the divine, but they contest that neither mary NOR jesus ARE the divine... ..and a curse upon any that believes otherwise. they further expand by saying that people merely repeat the words of the people that did not believe in the first place....such as the hebrews that listened to the rabbis that funded jesus' crucification. lastly, they point to a scripture in the holy bible itself where god said, quite simply, that he stands alone. |
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riven
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Post by riven on Apr 9, 2008 10:47:12 GMT -5
Oh I love Muslims...I just hate Islam.  Love the people, hate the false religion. Since Christianity is only about 2000 years old and the written word is about 6000 years old and man has been around in one form or another for at least 10000 years... ...i guess you hate Christianity also? since its a false religion? |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 9, 2008 10:53:37 GMT -5
Riven, being a true Christian (follower of Christ) is the only true religion. How long it's been around doesn't mean anything... Judiasm (sp) was the ancestor to Christianity, and that's been around forever.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 9, 2008 11:08:53 GMT -5
WHAT WE DO NOT BELIEVE
that water baptism is an essential element or portion of a salvation process where the individual contacts the Blood of Christ, or connects with the grace of God, in that water. These errors are taught in denominations such as the Church of Christ , the Disciples of Christ, and most “Christian” churches.
But Scripture teaches different:
Born Again in Water Baptism
John 1:32 - when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.
John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).
John 3:22 - after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus' teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism.
John 4:1 - here is another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus' baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5.
Acts 8:36 – the eunuch recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures.
Acts 10:47 - Peter says "can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people..?" The Bible always links water and baptism.
Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Saul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The “washing away” refers to water baptism.
Titus 3:5-6 – Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water.
Heb. 10:22 – the author is also writing about water baptism in this verse. “Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.” Our bodies are washed with pure water in water baptism.
2 Kings 5:14 - Naaman dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, and his flesh was restored like that of a child. This foreshadows the regenerative function of baptism, by water and the Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 44:3 - the Lord pours out His water and His Spirit. Water and the Spirit are linked to baptism. The Bible never separates them.
Ezek. 36:25-27 - the Lord promises He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit. Paul refers to this verse in Heb. 10:22. The teaching of Ezekiel foreshadows the salvific nature of Christian baptism instituted by Jesus and taught in John 3:5, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21 and Acts 22:16.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 9, 2008 11:13:31 GMT -5
Romans 2 teaches that even "non-believers" (those who don't have The Law) can be saved.
So it's not a religion that God judges, but a persons actions.
A good atheist that gives to the poor, visits the imprisoned and helps the widow will get into heaven before a sinful believer that robs and kills and that rapes children will anyday.
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 9, 2008 11:28:28 GMT -5
I have a whole lesson on water baptism, if youd like to see it.
There are different baptisms in the Bible, some are required (like the baptism of the HS) and some are not (like water baptism)
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Post by Cepha on Apr 9, 2008 11:32:39 GMT -5
in the works oriented, fear and superstition driven concepts ingrained in Roman Catholicism; nor in practices such as the veneration of Mary and a perverted view of the Lord's Supper.
But Scripture teaches different:
Matt. 7:1-3 - we are not judged just by faith, but actually how we judge others, and we get what we have given. Hence, we are judged according to how we responded to God's grace during our lives.
Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If this is true, then how can Protestants believe in the erroneous teaching of "Once saved, always saved?" If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.
Matt. 16:27 – Jesus says He will repay every man for what he has done (works).
Matt. 25:31-46 - Jesus' teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives, not just on their acceptance of Christ as Savior. In fact, this teaching even demonstrates that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know Christ. Also, we don’t accept Christ; He accepts us. God first makes the decision to accept us before we could ever accept Him.
Matt. 25:40,45 - Jesus says "Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me." We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our works.
Mark 10:21 - Jesus says sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. This means that our salvation depends upon our works.
Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord's will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.
Luke 14:14 – Jesus says we are repaid for the works we have done at the resurrection of the just. Our works lead to salvation.
Luke 23:41 - some Protestants argue that Jesus gave salvation to the good thief even though the thief did not do any good works. However, the good thief did in fact do a good work, which was rebuking the bad thief when he and others were reviling Jesus. This was a "work" which justified the good thief before Jesus and gained His favor. Moreover, we don't know if the good thief asked God for forgiveness, did works of penance and charity and was reconciled to God before he was crucified.
Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God's grace.
2 Cor. 5:10 - at the judgment Seat of Christ, we are judged according to what we have done in the body, not how much faith we had.
2 Cor. 9:6 – Paul says that he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully, in connection with God’s judgment.
2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.
Gal. 6:7-9 – whatever a man sows, he will reap. Paul warns the Galatians not to grow weary in doing good works, for in due season they will reap (the rewards of eternal life).
Eph. 6:8 – whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same again from the Lord.
Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy.
1 Tim. 6:18-19 – the rich are to be rich in good deeds so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed, that is, eternal life.
2 Tim. 4:14 – Alexander the coppersmith did Paul great harm, and Paul says the Lord will requite him for his deeds.
Heb. 6:10 - God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for His sake. God rewards our works on earth and in heaven.
Heb. 12:14 – without holiness, no one will see the Lord. Holiness requires works of self-denial and charity, and does not come about simply by a profession of faith.
1 Peter 1:17 - God judges us impartially according to our deeds. We participate in applying the grace Jesus won for us at Calvary in our daily lives.
Rev. 2:5 - Jesus tells the Ephesians they have fallen from love they used to have, and orders them to do good works. He is not satisfied with their faith alone. They need to do more than accept Him as personal Lord and Savior.
Rev. 2:10 – Jesus tells the church in Smyrna to be faithful unto death, and He will give them the crown of life. This is the faith of obedience to His commandments.
Rev. 2:19 - Jesus judges the works of the Thyatirans, and despises their tolerance of Jezebel, calling them to repentance.
Rev. 2:23 - Jesus tells us He will give to each of us as our works deserve. He crowns His own gifts by rewarding our good works.
Rev. 2:26 - Jesus says he who conquers and keeps my works until the end will be rewarded in heaven. Jesus thus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are "once saved, always saved."
Rev. 3:2-5,8,15 – Jesus is judging our works from heaven, and these works bear upon our eternal salvation. If we conquer sin through faith and works, He will not blot our names out of the book of life. This means that works bear upon our salvation. Our “works” do not just deal with level of reward we will receive, but whether we will in fact be saved.
Rev. 3:15 – Jesus says, “I know your works, you are neither cold nor hot. Because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth.” Jesus is condemning indifferentism, which is often based on our works.
Rev. 14:13 - we are judged by the Lord by our works – “for their deeds follow them!” Our faith during our life is completed and judged by our works.
Rev. 20:12 – “the dead are judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.”
Rev. 22:12 – Jesus says, “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay everyone for what he has done.”
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Post by Cepha on Apr 9, 2008 11:33:50 GMT -5
I have a whole lesson on water baptism, if youd like to see it. What's wrong? The Word of God isn't enough for you? The Scriptures there don't meet your requirements to believe? |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 9, 2008 11:36:47 GMT -5
That's not what Scripture teaches:
The Church is Visible and One
Matt. 5:14 - Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.
Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 - Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, "I will build my 'Church' (not churches)." There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.
Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - Jesus gave the apostles binding and loosing authority. But this authority requires a visible Church because "binding and loosing" are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose.
John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church.
John 17:11,21,23 - Jesus prays that His followers may be perfectly one as He is one with the Father. Jesus' oneness with the Father is perfect. It can never be less. Thus, the oneness Jesus prays for cannot mean the varied divisions of Christianity that have resulted since the Protestant reformation. There is perfect oneness only in the Catholic Church.
John 17:9-26 - Jesus' prayer, of course, is perfectly effective, as evidenced by the miraculous unity of the Catholic Church during her 2,000 year history.
John 17:21 - Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father.
Rom. 15:5 - Paul says that we as Christians must live in harmony with one another. But this can only happen if there is one Church with one body of faith. This can only happen by the charity of the Holy Spirit who dwells within the Church.
Rom. 16:17 - Paul warns us to avoid those who create dissensions and difficulties. This includes those who break away from the Church and create one denomination after another. We need to avoid their teaching, and bring them back into the one fold of Christ.
1 Cor. 1:10- Paul prays for no dissensions and disagreements among Christians, being of the same mind and the same judgment. How can Protestant pastors say that they are all of the same mind and the same judgment on matters of faith and morals?
Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - again, the Church does not mean "invisible" unity, because Paul called it the body (not the soul) of Christ. Bodies are visible, and souls are invisible.
Eph. 4:11-14 - God gives members of the Church various gifts in order to attain to the unity of the faith. This unity is only found in the Catholic Church.
Eph. 4:3-5 - we are of one body, one Spirit, one faith and one baptism. This requires doctrinal unity, not 30,000 different denominations.
Eph. 5:25 - the Church is the Bride of Christ. Jesus has only one Bride, not many.
Eph. 5:30; Rom. 12:4-5; 1 Cor. 6:15 - we, as Christians, are one visible body in Christ, not many bodies, many denominations.
Phil. 1:27 - Paul commands that we stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the Gospel.
Phil. 2:2 - Paul prays that Christians be of the same mind, of one accord. Yet there are 30,000 different "Protest"ant denominations?
Col. 1:18 - Christ is the Head of the one body, the Church. He is not the Head of many bodies or many sects.
1 Tim. 6:4 - Paul warns about those who seek controversy and disputes about words. There must be a universal authority to appeal to who can trace its authority back to Christ.
2 Tim. 2:14 - do not dispute about words which only ruin the hearers. Two-thousand years of doctrinal unity is a sign of Christ's Church.
2 Tim. 4:3 - this is a warning on following our own desires and not the teachings of God. It is not a cafeteria where we pick and choose. We must humble ourselves and accept all of Christ's teachings which He gives us through His Church.
Rev. 7:9 - the heavenly kingdom is filled with those from every nation and from all tribes, peoples and tongues. This is "catholic," which means universal.
1 Peter 3:8 - Peter charges us to have unity of spirit. This is impossible unless there is a central teaching authority given to us by God.
Gen. 12:2-3 - since Abram God said all the families of the earth shall be blessed. This family unity is fulfilled only in the Catholic Church.
Dan. 7:14 - Daniel prophesies that all peoples, nations and languages shall serve His kingdom. Again, this catholicity is only found in the Catholic Church.
1 Cor. 14:33 - God cannot be the author of the Protestant confusion. Only the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church claims and proves to be Christ's Church.
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 9, 2008 11:40:25 GMT -5
cepha- "baptism" in those verses does not always mean by water.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 9, 2008 11:41:39 GMT -5
Your church doesn't believe Jesus:
And you don't believe Jesus...
"There are different baptisms in the Bible, some are required (like the baptism of the HS) and some are not (like water baptism)"
3:3,5
Jesus says,
"Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 9, 2008 11:43:45 GMT -5
What book is that?
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Post by Cepha on Apr 9, 2008 11:48:56 GMT -5
I'm sorry...(mis-copied & pasted it): John 3 (King James Bible) 1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 9, 2008 11:50:44 GMT -5
Hello! Amen!
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 9, 2008 11:56:43 GMT -5
The water in that passage is talking about the water of cleansing that occurs at salvation.
Thanks google, lol. It probably explains it in my bible also...if only it wasn't in hubby's truck, I'll look later.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 9, 2008 12:05:07 GMT -5
You mean water doesn't mean water when Jesus says water? 
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Post by Cepha on Apr 9, 2008 12:10:56 GMT -5
The water in that passage is talking about the water of cleansing that occurs at salvation. Thanks google, lol. It probably explains it in my bible also...if only it wasn't in hubby's truck, I'll look later. We're not going to argue the definition of water now, are we? Jesus said that water is essential, His exact words were (and I am quoting Jesus Christ here): "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. " It takes BOTH, not just one. ============================================= except –verb 1. to exclude; leave out: present company excepted. 2. to object (usually fol. by to or against): to except to a statement; to except against a witness. |
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Love the people, hate the false religion.