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Post by watchman on Feb 19, 2009 17:02:48 GMT -5
#2 On the list of teaching Catholicism perverted. The Apostles taught that we could approach God for ourselves and that Jesus was the mediator between God and man. Catholicism has put a priest between us and God making them our mediators before God.
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Post by watchman on Feb 19, 2009 17:52:45 GMT -5
Before we move directly to #2 on my list I would like to post one more thing about the #1 truth of what the Apostles taught on the premillennial return of Christ, that catholics have perverted. www.biblicist.org/bible/premil.shtmlPre-Mill Advocates of the 1st Century:
1. Andrew
2. Peter
3. Philip
4. Thomas
5. James
6. John
7. Matthew
8. Aristio
9. John the Presbyter
Peters states regarding the above: "These all lived between A.D. 1-100; John, it is supposed -- so Mosheim, etc. -- died about A.D. 100. (All these are cited by Papias, who, according to Irenaeus, was one of John's hearers, and intimate with Polycarp. John is also expressly mentioned by Justin. Now this reference to the apostles agrees with the facts that we have proven: (a) that the disciples of Jesus did hold the Jewish views of the Messianic reign in the first part of this century, and (b) that, instead of discarding them, they linked them with the Sec. Advent)."
10. Clement of Rome A.D. 40-100
11. Barnabas A.D 40-100
12 Hermas A.D 40-150
13 Ignatius A.D. 50-115
14 Polycarp A.D. 70-167
15. Papias A.D. 80-163
None can be cited in this century to be against The Premillennial view.
Pre-Mill Advocates of the 2nd Century:
1. Pothinus A.D. 87-177
2. Justin Martyr A.D. 100-168
3. Melito A.D. 100-170
4. Hegisippus A.D. 130-190
5. Tatian A.D. 130-190
6. Irenaeus A.D. 140-202
7. The Churches of Vienne and Lyons - a letter A.D. 177
8. Tertulian A.D. 150-220
9. Hippolytus A.D. 160-240
10 Apollinaris A.D. 150-200
None can be cited in this century to be against Premillennialism. The common belief of the Church was Chiliastic (Premillennial).
Pre-Mill Advocates of the 3rd Century:
1. Cyprian A.D. 200-258
2. Commodian A.D. 200-270
3. Nepos A.D. 230-280
4. Coracion A.D. 230-280
5. Victorinus A.D. 240-303
6. Methodius A.D. 250-311
7. Lactantius A.D. 240-330
There were only four in this century that opposed the Premillennial view:
1. Caius (or Gaius), wrote about A.D. 210
2, Clemens Alexandrinus, died A.D. 202, great influence on Origin
3. Origin A.D. 185-254
4. Dionysius A.D. 190-265You can claim this site is lying or that the Apostles of Christ are heretics, but the reality is Catholicism has perverted the true teaching on this subject, and declared God's word as heresy. |
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Post by watchman on Feb 19, 2009 23:05:43 GMT -5
Justin Martyr, The Dialog of Justin:
Chapter LXXX.-The Opinion of Justin with Regard to the Reign of a Thousand Years. Several Catholics Reject It.
But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare
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Post by Cepha on Feb 19, 2009 23:30:23 GMT -5
Before we move directly to #2 on my list I would like to post one more thing about the #1 truth of what the Apostles taught on the premillennial return of Christ, that catholics have perverted. www.biblicist.org/bible/premil.shtmlPre-Mill Advocates of the 1st Century:
1. Andrew
2. Peter
3. Philip
4. Thomas
5. James
6. John
7. Matthew
8. Aristio
9. John the Presbyter
Peters states regarding the above: "These all lived between A.D. 1-100; John, it is supposed -- so Mosheim, etc. -- died about A.D. 100. (All these are cited by Papias, who, according to Irenaeus, was one of John's hearers, and intimate with Polycarp. John is also expressly mentioned by Justin. Now this reference to the apostles agrees with the facts that we have proven: (a) that the disciples of Jesus did hold the Jewish views of the Messianic reign in the first part of this century, and (b) that, instead of discarding them, they linked them with the Sec. Advent)."
10. Clement of Rome A.D. 40-100
11. Barnabas A.D 40-100
12 Hermas A.D 40-150
13 Ignatius A.D. 50-115
14 Polycarp A.D. 70-167
15. Papias A.D. 80-163
None can be cited in this century to be against The Premillennial view.
Pre-Mill Advocates of the 2nd Century:
1. Pothinus A.D. 87-177
2. Justin Martyr A.D. 100-168
3. Melito A.D. 100-170
4. Hegisippus A.D. 130-190
5. Tatian A.D. 130-190
6. Irenaeus A.D. 140-202
7. The Churches of Vienne and Lyons - a letter A.D. 177
8. Tertulian A.D. 150-220
9. Hippolytus A.D. 160-240
10 Apollinaris A.D. 150-200
None can be cited in this century to be against Premillennialism. The common belief of the Church was Chiliastic (Premillennial).
Pre-Mill Advocates of the 3rd Century:
1. Cyprian A.D. 200-258
2. Commodian A.D. 200-270
3. Nepos A.D. 230-280
4. Coracion A.D. 230-280
5. Victorinus A.D. 240-303
6. Methodius A.D. 250-311
7. Lactantius A.D. 240-330
There were only four in this century that opposed the Premillennial view:
1. Caius (or Gaius), wrote about A.D. 210
2, Clemens Alexandrinus, died A.D. 202, great influence on Origin
3. Origin A.D. 185-254
4. Dionysius A.D. 190-265You can claim this site is lying or that the Apostles of Christ are heretics, but the reality is Catholicism has perverted the true teaching on this subject, and declared God's word as heresy. Well, I see a list from an obviously biased source, but where are the "quotes" attributed to those listed that can be either confirmed or challenged? |
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Post by watchman on Feb 19, 2009 23:33:27 GMT -5
Like i said you can claim that the site is a lie or that the apostles were heretics, but you will refuse to accept the truth that Premillennialism is what the apostles believed and taught and Catholicism has perverted the truth of God calling it a lie.
Check out #2 on my list of many perversions of truth the catholic church has perpetrated onto christianity.
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Post by Cepha on Feb 19, 2009 23:36:28 GMT -5
We can argue until we turn blue in the face whether Premillennialism is true or not. The fact will remain, that the apostles believed and taught Premillennialism, and Catholicism does not. That is the question of the O.P. Right..."where"? Chapters, verses, etc... Well, before we can jump to that, we first have to see "where" in The New Testament this "teaching" is taught. So whenever you're ready, list the chapters and verses and the names of the Apostles who taught this.  |
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Post by watchman on Feb 19, 2009 23:38:44 GMT -5
We can argue until we turn blue in the face whether Premillennialism is true or not. The fact will remain, that the apostles believed and taught Premillennialism, and Catholicism does not. That is the question of the O.P. Right..."where"? Chapters, verses, etc... Well, before we can jump to that, we first have to see "where" in The New Testament this "teaching" is taught. So whenever you're ready, list the chapters and verses and the names of the Apostles who taught this. I have already given you a massive list as well as the reference in Revelation 20. You turning a blind eye is not an argument against the truth. |
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Post by watchman on Feb 19, 2009 23:41:12 GMT -5
We reign with Christ as kings and priest after the 2nd coming of the Lord for 1,000 years.
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
You can deny all you want this means exactly what it says and says exactly what it means.
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Post by Cepha on Feb 20, 2009 1:01:56 GMT -5
Right..."where"? Chapters, verses, etc... Well, before we can jump to that, we first have to see "where" in The New Testament this "teaching" is taught. So whenever you're ready, list the chapters and verses and the names of the Apostles who taught this. I have already given you a massive list as well as the reference in Revelation 20. You turning a blind eye is not an argument against the truth. Well, I must be blind then...  ...because in that "massive list" you gave, there weren't any accompanying quotes or documents. Which is what I asked for...just a list and what the site says the believed, but not the Father's own words. Are we just supposed to take a biased site's word for it? Why can they "literally" quote them word for word and cite the sources from which they quote The Fathers?  |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 20, 2009 1:03:12 GMT -5
We reign with Christ as kings and priest after the 2nd coming of the Lord for 1,000 years. Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.You can deny all you want this means exactly what it says and says exactly what it means. Yeah, like in Matthew 25 when The Saints rose from their graves on the same "day" that Jesus died...remember? I believe that 100%. ;D |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 20, 2009 1:05:31 GMT -5
Justin Martyr, The Dialog of Justin:
Chapter LXXX.-The Opinion of Justin with Regard to the Reign of a Thousand Years. Several Catholics Reject It.
But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare Does The Catholic Church reject it? If it does, then Justin is wrong in this instance. If it doesn't, then Justin is correct. But, I don't know what the Catholic Church feels on this, so I can't speak on it. I follow the Church (as The Apostles told us to). |
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Post by watchman on Feb 20, 2009 1:09:55 GMT -5
Justin Martyr, The Dialog of Justin:
Chapter LXXX.-The Opinion of Justin with Regard to the Reign of a Thousand Years. Several Catholics Reject It.
But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare Does The Catholic Church reject it? If it does, then Justin is wrong in this instance. If it doesn't, then Justin is correct. But, I don't know what the Catholic Church feels on this, so I can't speak on it. I follow the Church (as The Apostles told us to). The catholic church teaches amillennialism which is an antibiblical false doctrine. The Apostles taught the truth of Premillennialism. Why would you even ask a question to which you will deny every answer and every proof to said answers? Seems kind of pointless to me. The cathoic church is full of unbiblical and ever worse anti biblical false doctrines. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 20, 2009 1:10:23 GMT -5
But...which of The Apostles taught this? Historical Premillennialism: This belief was held by a large percentage of Christians "during the first three centuries of the Christian era, It was originally taught by John the Revelator, and is found in the works of Polycarp, Papias, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Methodius, Commodianus, and Lactanitus." 2 The Antichrist first appears on earth and the seven year Tribulation begins. Next comes the Rapture. Christ and his Church return to earth to rule for a Millennium. The forces of evil will be conquered. The faithful will live during this thousand years of peace in Jerusalem, while occupying spiritual bodies. After this period, all people are judged. The faithful will spend eternity on a new earth, (not in heaven). After Christianity became the official religion of Rome in the fourth century CE, this was declared a heresy and suppressed Right, so The Church, which is The Pillar of Truth (that which "supports" The Truth) has the final say in the matter and they have spoken. Just like like there were all kinds of heretical beliefs that were mistakenly believed to be "Christian" beliefs before The Church stomped out the Heresies. Remember, there was no Bible before The Church decided what was going to be "in" the Bible...there were no canonized Doctrines either until she decided "what" would be canonized. You have something in common with those Heretics...you disagree with The Church too.  |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 20, 2009 1:12:38 GMT -5
#2 On the list of teaching Catholicism perverted. The Apostles taught that we could approach God for ourselves and that Jesus was the mediator between God and man. Catholicism has put a priest between us and God making them our mediators before God. No, Jesus did that in Scripture...(and Priests aren't "mediators", they are "intercessors"...big difference: get it right before you slander a faith, know what it teaches...) Luke 5 12And it came to pass, when he was in a certain city, behold a man full of leprosy: who seeing Jesus fell on his face, and besought him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
13And he put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will: be thou clean. And immediately the leprosy departed from him.
14And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 20, 2009 1:15:11 GMT -5
The catholic church teaches amillennialism which is an antibiblical false doctrine. The Apostles taught the truth of Premillennialism. Why would you even ask a question to which you will deny every answer and every proof to said answers? Seems kind of pointless to me. The cathoic church is full of unbiblical and ever worse anti biblical false doctrines. Maybe it's false in your personal religion, but not in Christianity. Again, where is the proof that The Apostles taught Millernarialism? Still waiting for the scriptures. Remember, John's was a vision, but not a teaching. We're looking for teachings like Jesus taught or The Apostles taught on matters like accepting Gentiles into the faith, etc... Did you ever answer my question? Do you believe that "visions" are teachings? |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 20, 2009 1:18:44 GMT -5
The catholic church teaches amillennialism which is an antibiblical false doctrine. The Apostles taught the truth of Premillennialism. Why would you even ask a question to which you will deny every answer and every proof to said answers? Seems kind of pointless to me. The cathoic church is full of unbiblical and ever worse anti biblical false doctrines. Maybe it's false in your personal religion, but not in Christianity. Again, where is the proof that The Apostles taught Millernarialism? You're making a lot of claims, but I still haven't seen this avalanche of scriptural support you claimed to have much less, canonized teachings by The Church that support what you said. Still waiting for the scriptures. Remember, John's was a vision, but not a teaching. We're looking for teachings like Jesus taught or The Apostles taught on matters like accepting Gentiles into the faith, etc... Which reminds me, did you ever answer my question? Do you believe that "visions" are teachings? |
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Post by watchman on Feb 20, 2009 1:36:07 GMT -5
The catholic church teaches amillennialism which is an antibiblical false doctrine. The Apostles taught the truth of Premillennialism. Why would you even ask a question to which you will deny every answer and every proof to said answers? Seems kind of pointless to me. The cathoic church is full of unbiblical and ever worse anti biblical false doctrines. Maybe it's false in your personal religion, but not in Christianity. Again, where is the proof that The Apostles taught Millernarialism? You're making a lot of claims, but I still haven't seen this avalanche of scriptural support you claimed to have much less, canonized teachings by The Church that support what you said. Still waiting for the scriptures. Remember, John's was a vision, but not a teaching. We're looking for teachings like Jesus taught or The Apostles taught on matters like accepting Gentiles into the faith, etc... Which reminds me, did you ever answer my question? Do you believe that "visions" are teachings? 1st of all it is right there in Revelation written by the Apostle John who taught Polycarp who taught Irenaeus who all believe in the premillennial return of Christ. I have no religion I have a relationship with Jesus Christ. That is your problem you serve a religion not God. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 20, 2009 1:58:57 GMT -5
Maybe it's false in your personal religion, but not in Christianity. Again, where is the proof that The Apostles taught Millernarialism? You're making a lot of claims, but I still haven't seen this avalanche of scriptural support you claimed to have much less, canonized teachings by The Church that support what you said. Still waiting for the scriptures. Remember, John's was a vision, but not a teaching. We're looking for teachings like Jesus taught or The Apostles taught on matters like accepting Gentiles into the faith, etc... Which reminds me, did you ever answer my question? Do you believe that "visions" are teachings? 1st of all it is right there in Revelation written by the Apostle John who taught Polycarp who taught Irenaeus who all believe in the premillennial return of Christ. I have no religion I have a relationship with Jesus Christ. That is your problem you serve a religion not God. "What's" all there? That's like me asking you for a specific book and you pointing to a library and telling me "it's there". No where does it mention what Millernarians believe doctrinally...and hey, don't knock "religion"...it's scritpural: Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world. And don't forget, not only was Jesus a very religious man who practiced ancient rituals of his religion, He created a Church (a "religious" institution). And, Jesus defended the authority of Religion. He taught that His followers were to "obey" (his word, not mine) The Religious Leaders. It is what it is...Yes, I follow a Religion "because" I follow God. And, show me one quote of Polycarp's where he teaches what you believe and it was ratified by The Church which Polycarp not only defended, but this is recorded about him: " All the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna." Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155). So, what did you think Polycarp said when The Church he submitted his will to made the final declaration on this matter? Oh, he was dead by then! He would've agreed with whatever The Church said anyway, he had to. He was a Catholic. See, you follow "men" and their uncanonized words. We can reject anything that is not canonized by The Church. At the time that Polycarp was around, they couldn't even sit down to create a Bible, much less figure out doctrines that took hundreds of years to analyze and discern. Trust me..."my" Church father would've immediately yielded to The Church he swore to serve...not to his own whims. Just like Jesus said that whoever rejected The Apostles (the first leaders of The Church) rejected Him and God The Father...so was it with their successors when they spoke canonically. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 20, 2009 1:59:34 GMT -5
Wait a minute...do you believe in Apostolic Succession since you keep on firing off Polycarp's lineage?
(Please say yes!)
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Post by watchman on Feb 20, 2009 13:01:40 GMT -5
1st of all it is right there in Revelation written by the Apostle John who taught Polycarp who taught Irenaeus who all believe in the premillennial return of Christ. I have no religion I have a relationship with Jesus Christ. That is your problem you serve a religion not God. "What's" all there? That's like me asking you for a specific book and you pointing to a library and telling me "it's there". No where does it mention what Millernarians believe doctrinally...and hey, don't knock "religion"...it's scritpural: It is the Millennium that is what we have been discussing right? Millenniumerians believe in the 1,000 years earthly reign of Christ. I am a Historic Premillennialist because I believe the historic teaching of the Apostles and their students on the subject. The catholic church teaches a lie. |
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...because in that "massive list" you gave, there weren't any accompanying quotes or documents. 
