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Post by Cepha on Feb 15, 2009 17:50:46 GMT -5
What does The Church teach today
(specifically, The Catholic Church)
that goes against Apostolic Teaching? 
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Post by watchman on Feb 15, 2009 22:40:28 GMT -5
I will start, I will go with just one for now and an easy one that really cannot be denied but cepha probably will. The Apostles were premillennialist, catholics are amillennialist.
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Post by Cepha on Feb 16, 2009 0:49:52 GMT -5
I will start, I will go with just one for now and an easy one that really cannot be denied but cepha probably will. The Apostles were premillennialist, catholics are amillennialist. What's a Premillennialist? |
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Post by watchman on Feb 16, 2009 12:33:13 GMT -5
I will start, I will go with just one for now and an easy one that really cannot be denied but cepha probably will. The Apostles were premillennialist, catholics are amillennialist. What's a Premillennialist? Surely you know even if you do not agree, however just to amuse you, I will explain. A premillennialist is someone who believes Jesus will return from heaven to earth prior to His Millennial reign. |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Feb 17, 2009 22:32:38 GMT -5
this stuff is just too confusing
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Post by watchman on Feb 17, 2009 22:41:04 GMT -5
Well the fact is the Apostle believe that after Jesus returns He will reign on earth for 1,000 years. Catholics have decided they would dismiss this teaching of the Apostles themselves as heresy.
I was hoping cepha would try to defend this or Teresa would confirm it, so we could go to the next thing Catholics teach that does not line up with the apostles teaching, but it seems no one wants to touch this one.
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Post by Cepha on Feb 18, 2009 20:22:43 GMT -5
What's a Premillennialist? Surely you know even if you do not agree, however just to amuse you, I will explain. A premillennialist is someone who believes Jesus will return from heaven to earth prior to His Millennial reign. I'm surprised you didn't know that Catholics aren't obsessed with Millenarianism. You got me there...I haven't gotten to that part in The Bible yet. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 18, 2009 20:23:06 GMT -5
But...which of The Apostles taught this?
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Post by Cepha on Feb 18, 2009 20:55:51 GMT -5
Well the fact is the Apostle believe that after Jesus returns He will reign on earth for 1,000 years. Catholics have decided they would dismiss this teaching of the Apostles themselves as heresy. Where does it say this in The Bible (what you said that The Apostles believe)? Ok, show me in The Bible where The Apostles teach this, then I'll compare it to Catholic teaching.  (Again, most Catholics aren't well versed on Millernarianism) |
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Post by watchman on Feb 18, 2009 22:46:24 GMT -5
Surely you know even if you do not agree, however just to amuse you, I will explain. A premillennialist is someone who believes Jesus will return from heaven to earth prior to His Millennial reign. I'm surprised you didn't know that Catholics aren't obsessed with Millenarianism. You got me there...I haven't gotten to that part in The Bible yet. Many of the Old Testament prophets wrote about the millennium, also John wrote about it in Revelation, are you telling me that you have never read the end of Revelation? |
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Post by watchman on Feb 18, 2009 22:51:36 GMT -5
But...which of The Apostles taught this? Historical Premillennialism: This belief was held by a large percentage of Christians "during the first three centuries of the Christian era, It was originally taught by John the Revelator, and is found in the works of Polycarp, Papias, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Methodius, Commodianus, and Lactanitus." 2 The Antichrist first appears on earth and the seven year Tribulation begins. Next comes the Rapture. Christ and his Church return to earth to rule for a Millennium. The forces of evil will be conquered. The faithful will live during this thousand years of peace in Jerusalem, while occupying spiritual bodies. After this period, all people are judged. The faithful will spend eternity on a new earth, (not in heaven). After Christianity became the official religion of Rome in the fourth century CE, this was declared a heresy and suppressed |
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Post by watchman on Feb 18, 2009 22:56:11 GMT -5
Ok, show me in The Bible where The Apostles teach this, then I'll compare it to Catholic teaching. Revelation 20 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. I emboldened the passages you should pay close attention to and underlined the specific references to the Millennium. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 19, 2009 15:39:44 GMT -5
But...which of The Apostles taught this? Historical Premillennialism: This belief was held by a large percentage of Christians "during the first three centuries of the Christian era, It was originally taught by John the Revelator, and is found in the works of Polycarp, Papias, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Methodius, Commodianus, and Lactanitus." 2 The Antichrist first appears on earth and the seven year Tribulation begins. Next comes the Rapture. Christ and his Church return to earth to rule for a Millennium. The forces of evil will be conquered. The faithful will live during this thousand years of peace in Jerusalem, while occupying spiritual bodies. After this period, all people are judged. The faithful will spend eternity on a new earth, (not in heaven). After Christianity became the official religion of Rome in the fourth century CE, this was declared a heresy and suppressed Well, first of all, you are mistaken. Christianity was never the "official" religion of The Roman Empire. If it was, could you prove that? Also, The Church decides what is and what isn't Heresy, so if it was/is a Heresy, then The Church had every right to protect Christians from a false beliefs (like the false beliefs that Jesus was married or that he was gay or that women had to physically transform to men before they were allowed into heaven, etc...). Many Christians also believed that Mary Magdalene was a prostititute until it was "officially" cleared up by The Church. It's not what is "believed" by the people, but what is "taught" by The Church that equate to a believable teaching. Since when did the people dictate to religious leaders what was and what wasn't right? Then they wouldn't be leaders. Then, everybody would be their own "pope". Is there an "official" teaching on this by The Apostles on Millernarialism? Like, do they use the words "premillennialist"? Or the other one "amillenialist"? Or Millernarians? I want to see the Doctrinal Teaching. I want to see The Apostles saying "this is what this means". What you posted were visions that are left up to us to determine what they mean. Who determines it? Us individually? Or are we appointed teachers by God to discern this to us? And, you only have posted what John wrote was a vision, not a "belief" that he taught (for example, The Eucharist was a belief that was taught). Personal visions aren't doctrinal teachings. What does The Church teach today (specifically, The Catholic Church) that goes against Apostolic Teaching? Do you believe that John's "vision" was a teaching of his to us? A doctrinal teaching like salvation or like the conditions for justification? You put John's "vision" on the same level as those "obvious" teachings? John called this a "prophecy". How is a prophecy (the prediction of a future event) a teaching? How can we "do" a/pre mellinalism? I'm really ignorant on this type of Protestant Theology, so you'll have to bear with me. That's why I ask so many questions. I don't ever remember ever in Christian history Millernarialism being taught by any of The Apostles. But before I can comment further, I really need to know the answers to the questions I asked. Thank you and thank you for using the entire passage. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 19, 2009 15:50:20 GMT -5
Ok, show me in The Bible where The Apostles teach this, then I'll compare it to Catholic teaching. Revelation 20 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. I emboldened the passages you should pay close attention to and underlined the specific references to the Millennium. Some people believe that this "thousand" years happened when Jesus was born. That Satan being cast down was in Revelation 12, where it mentions the birth of Christ and Satan being cast down. Was he cast down twice? Remember, Christianity was completely united until about a thousand years "after" Jesus was born. What happened after that? Satan began his attacks on The Church (he was loosed?). First, The Great Schism of The Orthodox and The Catholic Church...coincidentally about 1000 years "after" Jesus was born and Revelation 12 says Satan was cast out of heaven. After that, continual attacks on The Church where more pieces were broken off (where the weakminded followed men instead of Christian tradition) which led to the situation we have today...10's of thousands of denominations (seperate factions of The Church). Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.See what came before this? Revelation 12
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. By the time Revelation 20 comes around, Satan is already "on" The Earth. In Revelation 12, he was cast down "from" Heaven. This can be precisely timed to when? To when Jesus was born. Right? |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 19, 2009 15:53:35 GMT -5
Many of the Old Testament prophets wrote about the millennium... Where? I've read the entire book of Revelation but saw no mention of Millernarianism in it. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 19, 2009 16:15:06 GMT -5
Many of the Old Testament prophets wrote about the millennium... Where? I've read the entire book of Revelation but saw no mention of Millernarianism in it. But wait...I have to stop even myself...before we go on any further, let us define what these terms we are using are. Let's see if these terms are "biblical" terms. If not, then let's see from where they originated so that we can test the tree from which this fruit is born. PremillennialismPremillennialism in Christian eschatology is the belief that Christ will literally reign on the earth for 1,000 years at his second coming. (Seventh-day Adventists interpret it as a reign in heaven). The doctrine is called premillennialism because it views the current age as prior to Christ’s kingdom. It is distinct from the other forms of Christian eschatology such as amillennialism or postmillennialism, which view the millennial rule as either figurative and non-temporal, or as occurring prior to the second coming. Premillennialism is largely based upon a literal interpretation of Revelation 20:1-6 in the New Testament which describes Christ’s coming to the earth and subsequent reign at the end of an apocalyptic period of tribulation. It views this future age as a time of fulfillment for the prophetic hope of God’s people as given in the Old Testament. Origin of the termHistorically Christian premillennialism has also been referred as "chiliasm" or "millenarianism". The theological term "premillennialism" did not come into general use until the mid-nineteenth century, the modern period in which premillennialism was revived. Coining the word was "almost entirely the work of British and American Protestants and was prompted by their belief that the French and American Revolution (the French, especially) realized prophecies made in the books of Daniel and Revelation."[1] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PremillennialismAmillennialismAmillennialism (Latin: a- "against" + millenialism) is a view in Christian eschatology named for its rejection of a claimed future, thousand-year, physical reign of Jesus Christ on the earth, in opposition to premillennial and some postmillennial views of the Book of Revelation, chapter 20. By contrast, the amillennial view holds that the number of years in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the church age (or more rarely, that it ended with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 — see Preterism); and that while Christ's reign is spiritual in nature during the millennium, at the end of the church age, Christ will return in final judgment and establish permanent physical reign. TerminologyMany proponents dislike the name amillennialism because it emphasizes their negative differences with premillennialism rather than their positive beliefs about the millennium, and although they prefer alternate terms such as nunc-millennialism (that is, now-millennialism) or realized millennialism, the acceptance and wide-spread usage of the different names has been limited.[1] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AmillennialismMillenarianismMillenarianism (also millenarism) is the belief by a religious, social, or political group or movement in a coming major transformation of society after which all things will be changed in a positive (or sometimes negative or ambiguous) direction. Millennialism is a specific form of millenarianism based on a one-thousand year cycle, especially significant for Christianity. HistoryA core doctrine in Christian eschatology is the expectation of the Second Coming and the establishment of the kingdom of God on earth. According to prophecies in the Book of Daniel and the Revelation of St. John, this kingdom of God on earth will last a thousand years (a millennium). [1]Millenarian ideas permeated early Christian thought. From the 5th century on, opposition to this ideology mounted, and only small groups outside the official churches embraced it. In the 16th century, millenarian beliefs re-emerged in certain branches of Protestantism, and millenarianism became more entrenched after the French Revolution. [2]In England, these ideas were spread by the evangelical movement in the late 18th and early 19th century. Dozens of books promoting millenarianism were published in the first three decades of the 19th century, and millenarian societies were formed. Leading thinkers of the time were James Bicheno and Charles Jerram. [3] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MillenarianismAre you agreeable to these terms and their definitions? Would you say that they accurately reflect your views? And, does this make you a Millernarian by virtue of your adopting their beliefs? |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 19, 2009 16:18:55 GMT -5
So, is Revelation 20 literal? Or symbolic? That is The Question. Let us see who sees it as literal and who sees it as symbolic. Which "groups" that is.  |
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Post by watchman on Feb 19, 2009 16:54:31 GMT -5
Many of the Old Testament prophets wrote about the millennium... Where? I've read the entire book of Revelation but saw no mention of Millernarianism in it. I posted Revelation 20, your denial of truth does not make it any less true. |
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Post by watchman on Feb 19, 2009 16:55:55 GMT -5
So, is Revelation 20 literal? Or symbolic? That is The Question. Let us see who sees it as literal and who sees it as symbolic. Which "groups" that is. Is the Bible literal or symbolic? |
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Post by watchman on Feb 19, 2009 17:00:18 GMT -5
We can argue until we turn blue in the face whether Premillennialism is true or not. The fact will remain, that the apostles believed and taught Premillennialism, and Catholicism does not. That is the question of the O.P.
Now we can debate the validity of The Apostles teaching, or you can claim the Apostles were heretics, and we can moved to the next thing that Catholicism has perverted from the original teachings of the Apostles.
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