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Post by watchman on Feb 20, 2009 13:03:06 GMT -5
Historical Premillennialism: This belief was held by a large percentage of Christians "during the first three centuries of the Christian era, It was originally taught by John the Revelator, and is found in the works of Polycarp, Papias, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Methodius, Commodianus, and Lactanitus." 2 The Antichrist first appears on earth and the seven year Tribulation begins. Next comes the Rapture. Christ and his Church return to earth to rule for a Millennium. The forces of evil will be conquered. The faithful will live during this thousand years of peace in Jerusalem, while occupying spiritual bodies. After this period, all people are judged. The faithful will spend eternity on a new earth, (not in heaven). After Christianity became the official religion of Rome in the fourth century CE, this was declared a heresy and suppressed Right, so The Church, which is The Pillar of Truth (that which "supports" The Truth) has the final say in the matter and they have spoken. Sorry but I believe God and His apostles over your church. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 20, 2009 15:34:35 GMT -5
"What's" all there? That's like me asking you for a specific book and you pointing to a library and telling me "it's there". No where does it mention what Millernarians believe doctrinally...and hey, don't knock "religion"...it's scritpural: It is the Millennium that is what we have been discussing right? Millenniumerians believe in the 1,000 years earthly reign of Christ. I am a Historic Premillennialist because I believe the historic teaching of the Apostles and their students on the subject. The catholic church teaches a lie. But it was your source (Wikiepedia) that called you a "This article is about Premillennialism in Christian eschatology. For other uses, see Millenarianism." Do you disagree now with your own source?  And, your belief is called "Millenarianism". Did you "not" know that? And, "where" exactly is this "historical teaching"? John's vision? If it is a teaching, then why doesn't John speak about it and teach about it? All he did was to reveal what he saw in a vision, but he didn't explain it (which is what a teaching is, right). Just curious (and for the 3rd time): Do you believe that visions are to be taken as "doctrinal"? (Why you refuse to answer that question, I don't know, but I'm going to keep asking it) |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 20, 2009 15:37:10 GMT -5
Right, so The Church, which is The Pillar of Truth (that which "supports" The Truth) has the final say in the matter and they have spoken. Sorry but I believe God and His apostles over your church. So if you believe in God and His Apostles, why don't you believe in The Church that The Church Fathers "you" yourself quoted called The Church Jesus started? How can you believe in God and His Apostles, yet reject His Church?  |
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Post by watchman on Feb 20, 2009 17:12:04 GMT -5
What you claim to be the church is the church of satan not of Jesus Christ.
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Feb 20, 2009 19:54:42 GMT -5
What you claim to be the church is the church of satan not of Jesus Christ.  That is a very bold statement! Watchman, i may have asked this before, but what church do you attend. |
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Post by watchman on Feb 20, 2009 20:11:36 GMT -5
I go to a Pentecostal church. although I must say I refuse to join as a member because i do not agree with much of what the Denomination teaches. However the Pastor of the church I attend does not tow the denominational line. I believe God's word. I believe there are many good catholics. however cepha is not one of them. He ask what teaching are there that the catholic church teaches that is different than twhat the Apostle teach one of them is amillennialism. The catholic church teaches amillennialism, the Apostles as well as the 1st century church taught premillennialism. this is a historical fact not up for debate, but cepha is so indoctrinated he denies the obvious.
Let me tell you this I do not think that protestantism is any better than catholicism. However I am thankful for the reformation (even though many reformed churches such as calvinist and lutheran are among the worse of all denominations) it allowed people like me to have a relationship with Christ with out being burned at the stake.
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Post by Cepha on Feb 20, 2009 21:28:47 GMT -5
What you claim to be the church is the church of satan not of Jesus Christ. Is that a "scriptural" belief? Or your own personal belief? Do you have proof of this allegation? So you believe that God chose The Church of Satan to create The Bible? To reveal The Doctrines of The Holy Trinity, of Salvation, of Justification, etc...? |
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Post by watchman on Feb 20, 2009 21:33:09 GMT -5
What you claim to be the church is the church of satan not of Jesus Christ. Is that a "scriptural" belief? Or your own personal belief? Do you have proof of this allegation? So you believe that God chose The Church of Satan to create The Bible? To reveal The Doctrines of The Holy Trinity, of Salvation, of Justification, etc...? What satan means for evil God can use for good, Catholicism has perverted many biblical truths. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 20, 2009 21:41:35 GMT -5
I go to a Pentecostal church. although I must say I refuse to join as a member because i do not agree with much of what the Denomination teaches.  How do you know "what" God's word is? Instead of insulting me, why can't you just produce the actual teaching (unless you believe that visions are teachings?)? Show one Millernarian belief that was taught by anyone of the Church Fathers that was actually accepted by the same Church that they defended as The True Church (the Catholic Church)? And, do you believe that Mary Magdalene and Jesus were married? That Jesus "wasn't" The Son of God? Because those "beliefs" were floating around at that time and The Catholic Church rejected them too. And we all know that you don't believe that I'm a good person because I own you on these threads. ;D So, instead of complaining about the questions or insulting me personally or insulting Christianity or going on about having to actually prove your points, just prove your points. Does your religious leader know this? Actually, the attempt to "reform" The Catholic Church into their image and desires failed miserably...that's why they retreated and collapsed into many splinter groups and have never been able to actually take the key away from Peter's successor. What God gives, man cannot take away.  |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 20, 2009 21:45:32 GMT -5
Is that a "scriptural" belief? Or your own personal belief? Do you have proof of this allegation? So you believe that God chose The Church of Satan to create The Bible? To reveal The Doctrines of The Holy Trinity, of Salvation, of Justification, etc...? What satan means for evil God can use for good, Catholicism has perverted many biblical truths. So, God failed and Satan beat him with The Catholic Church according to you, right? On the one hand, you claim that God can use Satan's church to do good with (kind of contrary to Jesus' teaching that nothing good can come out of something evil). On the other hand, you say that God allowed the perversion of biblical truths to exist in an evil church He is using to do good with, right? Wow.  See? That's why I don't ever have to insult you Watchman. You insult your own self with what you say. I couldn't do a better job. And I feel sorry for you. |
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Post by watchman on Feb 20, 2009 21:59:32 GMT -5
God has not failed you have. God has His remnant are you are not a part of it.
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Post by watchman on Feb 20, 2009 22:06:22 GMT -5
The are many false religions and pseudo christian cults. You just happen to be in the largest most widely accepted on out there. That doesn't make it any less false.
Most Protestants openly agree that Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons are not Christians (which I agree they are not) but accept Calvinist as simply another denomination or doctrinally flawed believers. Which I cannot figure out because Calvinism is just as false as Mormons or JWs, and is much more sinister in there beliefs of who God is, and all groups are led by false teachers rather then scripture. I do not believe you can be a Calvinist and a christian at the same time.
However I do believe that you can be a catholic and a Christian. Believing false teachings does not condemn you (certain ones will like the ones the Calvinist believe) but I think some catholics could be christians although the bowing to idols might rule you out.
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Post by watchman on Feb 20, 2009 22:08:33 GMT -5
The picture of the cafeteria does not bother me what they teach is false why should I blindly accept it.
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Post by Cepha on Feb 20, 2009 22:08:48 GMT -5
God has not failed you have. God has His remnant are you are not a part of it. How did I fail? I don't run The Church. And, you said you believe that God uses a church of Satan to do good, right? But doesn't purge it of it's evil teachings? Right? This is what you believe? |
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Post by watchman on Feb 20, 2009 22:12:44 GMT -5
God has not failed you have. God has His remnant are you are not a part of it. How did I fail? I don't run The Church. And, you said you believe that God uses a church of Satan to do good, right? But doesn't purge it of it's evil teachings? Right? This is what you believe? Right God can use anything or anybody for good but that does not purge you of your false teachings. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 21, 2009 8:28:55 GMT -5
How did I fail? I don't run The Church. And, you said you believe that God uses a church of Satan to do good, right? But doesn't purge it of it's evil teachings? Right? This is what you believe? Right God can use anything or anybody for good but that does not purge you of your false teachings. You said that God uses an evil institution to do good, but at the same time allows that institution to do evil. Does this apply to Abortion Clinics? Governments that wage unjust wars? Stripclubs? Odd. Tell us, what did God use The Catholic Church to do? What "good" did He use it for? Show us...shows us opus dei (the work of God) in The Catholic Church (which you say is an evil institution)... |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 21, 2009 8:36:10 GMT -5
The picture of the cafeteria does not bother me what they teach is false why should I blindly accept it. Well, Catholics believe that The Church that God creates is flawless, He even said that The Gates of Hell would "not" prevail against it"; meaning that it wouldn't be corrupted. You disagree with Jesus? We don't have to worry about having to "wonder" about "what" and "what not" to accept...that's one of the benefits of belonging to The Universal Christian Church. Once one falls out of it, then they have those questions to deal with (how can I trust someone who wasn't ordained by an Apostolically succceeded Magisterium?). |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 21, 2009 9:00:26 GMT -5
The are many false religions and pseudo christian cults. You just happen to be in the largest most widely accepted on out there. That doesn't make it any less false. Well, that would be the opinion of one who isn't in it. Makes sense...in order for you to be right, we "have to" be wrong. Not based on actual facts, but on your personal interpretations. Since you are leaderless, you wander with no spiritual home (house as Jesus would put it). Jesus built a "Church". You're either in it, or you're out of it...you obviously are "out of it". (by your own admission since you say you don't belong to any "church") Of course their going to be against themselves (a house divided amongst itself cannot stand and we know that Jesus often referred to The Church as a "house"). And, Jesus predicted this when He spoke on The Church built upon Peter and the ones that would come after it that were built upon men. (Peter literally means "rock", sand is soil which is what men are made of and house means "church"). Matthew 7 24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash." See how that describes The House Jesus built? It's 2,000 years old, The Church Fathers defended it, it never fell. Meanwhile, The Reformation attempt failed (it didn't "reform" The Catholic Church). It fell and crashed into many smaller pieces...or as we know them today "denominations" of the original group that tried to reform The Catholic Church. I don't believe that...believing in false teachings against The Church Jesus created does condemn you: Luke 10 Jesus Sends Out the Seventytwo
1After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2He told them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.
5"When you enter a house, first say, 'Peace to this house.' 6If a man of peace is there, your peace will rest on him; if not, it will return to you. 7Stay in that house, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.
8"When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set before you. 9Heal the sick who are there and tell them, 'The kingdom of God is near you.' 10But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 11'Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.' 12I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
13"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. 15And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths.
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." See? You're all over the place with your "beliefs", but you have to be. In order for you to justify your heresy, you have to "pick and chooose" what you believe. You can't just accept The Holy Bible as written (much less, Christian tradition or history), or you would have to stop being against Jesus' Church and your will to be against Jesus Church is far greater than your desire to become a member of it. Anybody can see that you have to parse scripture. It must be really hard for you. Gnashing your teeth outside of the gates of Jesus' Church. But, only you can change. God can't force you to believe. That all depends on your heart (which by your insults and slander is obvious "not" filled with love because where those things lie, love does not). You need love bro.  Once you get that, then you'll be ok. Then maybe, you'll see what we've been blessed to see and you'll have your eyes opened like these fellows did who "thought" they knew Jesus too, but couldn't see Him even though He was right in their faces (and all because of The Holy Eucharist that you refuse to accept): Luke 24 30When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?" That's how it is for Catholics...that's why we see what non-Catholics don't. We have The Blessed Sacrament of The Eucharist. No other church has this. Only us. But that which should be obvious is kept from those who it's not allowed to. We aren't converted to Universal Christianity...we are called to it by God. We're not wandering in desert looking for a home. We have the best house on block. We're not homeless. I wish I could get you into a Universal Christian Church. Give me an hour and a Bible and I would show you how everything "in" that Church is Biblical from the altar to the tabernacle to the candles to the incense to the Priesthood to the artwork to the most important part... ...The Eucahrist. No other House can claim this. That's why you don't see the Catholic Church going on these Anti-Protestant rants or setting up Anti-Protestant websites or going on missions to convert others. God converts, not man. See? We don't have to knock anybody else down. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 21, 2009 9:08:48 GMT -5
UNANSWERED QUESTIONS: How do you know "what" God's word is? Instead of insulting me, why can't you just produce the actual teaching (unless you believe that visions are teachings?)? Show one Millernarian belief that was taught by anyone of the Church Fathers that was actually accepted by the same Church that they defended as The True Church (the Catholic Church)? Does your religious leader know this? But it was your source (Wikiepedia) that called you a "This article is about Premillennialism in Christian eschatology. For other uses, see Millenarianism." Do you disagree now with your own source? And, your belief is called "Millenarianism". Did you "not" know that? And, "where" exactly is this "historical teaching"? John's vision? Is that a "scriptural" belief? Or your own personal belief? Do you have proof of this allegation? Do you "pick & choose" what doctrinal teachings were taught by The Church Fathers quoted (like Irenaeous, Polycarp, etc...)? The quote you falsely "claimed" was Irenaeous and which you doctored to misrepresent "what" he was saying and was actually Papias' quote (not Irenaeous'), do you retract that claim now? I know these are really tough questions for you to address, but try.
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Post by watchman on Feb 21, 2009 12:56:27 GMT -5
You condemn yourself? The Catholic church is full of false anti biblical doctrine. Let me explain it to you so a child could understand. If the bible says one thing, and the catholics teach the opposite, then God is right and the catholics are wrong. |
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That is a very bold statement! 
