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Post by watchman on Feb 26, 2009 11:02:09 GMT -5
You are the one that disagrees with History, you have created a false version of History in your head. You actually think that Cathoicism started in the upper room and that Peter was the first pope...lol, rflol, hahahahahaha, what a nut case  (And slowly, he unravels...) Keep the insults coming. A sure sign that you can't prove your point. It is historically proven that Saint Peter "is" The First Pope of The Catholic Church. Would you like to have a discussion on this? Sure there is not one iota of historical fact in the false teaching that Peter was ever Pope. |
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Post by watchman on Feb 26, 2009 11:07:52 GMT -5
watchman, who are the early church fathers to you? And do you believe in their teachings? Also, what year did Penticostal(belief system) denomination develope? The church fathers to me are the Apostles as well as Paul who is my Apostles since I am a Gentile, and the first century disciple that had direct contact with the Apostles such as PolyCarp, Irenaeus ect.... and yes, I do believe their teachings. As far as Pentecostal I am not sure what (belief system) you are referring to. Personally I am anti denominationalism, sooooo. However if you are talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit being given to the Church, that would be in the upper room Acts 2 |
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Post by watchman on Feb 26, 2009 11:12:53 GMT -5
Watchman, you REALLLY make me love Catholicism even more! And you make me thank God everyday that I am not blinded by indoctrination and the philosophies of men. That I am dependent on God , His Word, and His Spirit alone.
1st John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. I would much rather accept the witness from heaven than the teachings of man. P.S. I answered CC's question and I answered it honestly |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Feb 26, 2009 15:32:04 GMT -5
watchman, who are the early church fathers to you? And do you believe in their teachings? Also, what year did Penticostal(belief system) denomination develope? The church fathers to me are the Apostles as well as Paul who is my Apostles since I am a Gentile, and the first century disciple that had direct contact with the Apostles such as PolyCarp, Irenaeus ect.... and yes, I do believe their teachings. As far as Pentecostal I am not sure what (belief system) you are referring to. Personally I am anti denominationalism, sooooo. However if you are talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit being given to the Church, that would be in the upper room Acts 2 Ok, so lets start here... Saint Irenaeus (Greek: Åἰñçíáῖïò), (2nd century AD - c. 202) was Bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, then a part of the Roman Empire (now Lyons, France). He was an early church father and apologist, and his writings were formative in the early development of Christian theology. He was a disciple of Saint Polycarp, who was said to be a disciple of Saint John the Evangelist. St Irenaeus's best-known book, Adversus Haereses or Against Heresies (c. 180) is a detailed attack on Gnosticism, which was then a serious threat to the Church, and especially on the system of the Gnostic Valentinus.[1] As the first great Catholic theologian, he emphasized the traditional elements in the Church, especially the episcopate, Scripture, and tradition.[1] Irenaeus wrote that the only way for Christians to retain unity was to humbly accept one doctrinal authority--episcopal councils.[2] Against the Gnostics, who said that they possessed a secret oral tradition from Jesus himself, Irenaeus maintained that the bishops in different cities are known as far back as the Apostles — and none of them were Gnostics — and that the bishops provided the only safe guide to the interpretation of Scripture.[3] His writings, with those of Clement and Ignatius, are taken to hint at papal primacy.[1] Irenaeus is the earliest witness to recognition of the canonical character of all four gospels.[4]Irenaeus is recognized as a saint by both the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church. His feast day is celebrated on June 28. In the 1962 calendar, his feast day is on July 3rd. This is only the case in this calendar. In earlier calendars, his feast day was the same as today (June 28th). The 1962 movement of the day was to accommodate a Vigil Mass of the Solemnity of Sts. Peter and Paul. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaeus |
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Post by teresahrc on Feb 26, 2009 15:50:13 GMT -5
The Bible is the best historical evidence, after that we have almost 2000 years of other historical evidence.
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Post by Cepha on Feb 26, 2009 16:17:09 GMT -5
(And slowly, he unravels...) Keep the insults coming. A sure sign that you can't prove your point. It is historically proven that Saint Peter "is" The First Pope of The Catholic Church. Would you like to have a discussion on this? Sure there is not one iota of historical fact in the false teaching that Peter was ever Pope. Matthew 16:18 18 And I also say to you that you are Rock (Peter), and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Roman Catholic Popes First Century St. Peter (c.33-67AD) Linus (? 67-76) Anacletus (? 76-88) Clement I (? 88-97) Evaristus (? 97-105) www.britannia.com/history/resource/popes.html |
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Post by watchman on Feb 26, 2009 16:19:00 GMT -5
The church fathers to me are the Apostles as well as Paul who is my Apostles since I am a Gentile, and the first century disciple that had direct contact with the Apostles such as PolyCarp, Irenaeus ect.... and yes, I do believe their teachings. As far as Pentecostal I am not sure what (belief system) you are referring to. Personally I am anti denominationalism, sooooo. However if you are talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit being given to the Church, that would be in the upper room Acts 2 Ok, so lets start here... Saint Irenaeus (Greek: Åἰñçíáῖïò), (2nd century AD - c. 202) was Bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, then a part of the Roman Empire (now Lyons, France). He was an early church father and apologist, and his writings were formative in the early development of Christian theology. He was a disciple of Saint Polycarp, who was said to be a disciple of Saint John the Evangelist. St Irenaeus's best-known book, Adversus Haereses or Against Heresies (c. 180) is a detailed attack on Gnosticism, which was then a serious threat to the Church, and especially on the system of the Gnostic Valentinus.[1] As the first great Catholic theologian, he emphasized the traditional elements in the Church, especially the episcopate, Scripture, and tradition.[1] Irenaeus wrote that the only way for Christians to retain unity was to humbly accept one doctrinal authority--episcopal councils.[2] Against the Gnostics, who said that they possessed a secret oral tradition from Jesus himself, Irenaeus maintained that the bishops in different cities are known as far back as the Apostles — and none of them were Gnostics — and that the bishops provided the only safe guide to the interpretation of Scripture.[3] His writings, with those of Clement and Ignatius, are taken to hint at papal primacy.[1] Irenaeus is the earliest witness to recognition of the canonical character of all four gospels.[4]Irenaeus is recognized as a saint by both the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church. His feast day is celebrated on June 28. In the 1962 calendar, his feast day is on July 3rd. This is only the case in this calendar. In earlier calendars, his feast day was the same as today (June 28th). The 1962 movement of the day was to accommodate a Vigil Mass of the Solemnity of Sts. Peter and Paul. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaeus That is the point of this whole thread both Polycarp and Irenaeus taught the Millennial reign of Christ as well as His premillennial return. The Roman Catholic Church denies that the millennium is truth. P.S. i have nothing against the catholic or universal church, my problem is that the Roman Catholic church or what we know as catholicism is not what Irenaeus referred to when he uses the world ''Catholic'', he is referring to the ''one Universal truth'' not Roman catholic catholicism. |
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Post by watchman on Feb 26, 2009 16:25:01 GMT -5
Sure there is not one iota of historical fact in the false teaching that Peter was ever Pope. Matthew 16:18 18 And I also say to you that you are Rock (Peter), and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Roman Catholic Popes First Century St. Peter (c.33-67AD) Linus (? 67-76) Anacletus (? 76-88) Clement I (? 88-97) Evaristus (? 97-105) www.britannia.com/history/resource/popes.htmlPeter was not the Pope he was in no way associated to what we know as Roman catholic catholicism. Matter of fact I know (by reading scripture) that he would be directly oppose to it. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 26, 2009 16:42:02 GMT -5
The church fathers to me are the Apostles as well as Paul who is my Apostles since I am a Gentile, and the first century disciple that had direct contact with the Apostles such as PolyCarp, Irenaeus ect.... and yes, I do believe their teachings. "Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110). " ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna."
Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155).
Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate.
Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).
And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as…Anencletus and Clement to Peter?"
Ignatius, To the Trallians, 7 (A.D. 110).
"Therefore shall you [Hermas] write two little books and send one to Clement [Bishop of Rome] and one to Grapte. Clement shall then send it to the cities abroad, because that is his duty" (The Shepherd 2:4:3 [A.D. 80]).
Hermas
"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).
"You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force" (ibid., 3:1).
Ignatius of Antioch
"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).
"Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church"
(Against Heresies, 3, 1:1 [A.D. 189]).
"The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the letter to Timothy [2 Tim. 4:21]. To him succeeded Anacletus, and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was chosen for the episcopate. He had seen the blessed apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that he still heard the echoes of the preaching of the apostles and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the apostles. In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith. ... To this Clement, Evaristus succeeded . . . and now, in the twelfth place after the apostles, the lot of the episcopate [of Rome] has fallen to Eleutherius. In this order, and by the teaching of the apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us" (ibid., 3, 3, 3).
"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the succession of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church [of Rome], because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3, 3, 2).
Irenaeus
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Post by Cepha on Feb 26, 2009 16:48:04 GMT -5
Matthew 16:18 18 And I also say to you that you are Rock (Peter), and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Roman Catholic Popes First Century St. Peter (c.33-67AD) Linus (? 67-76) Anacletus (? 76-88) Clement I (? 88-97) Evaristus (? 97-105) www.britannia.com/history/resource/popes.htmlPeter was not the Pope he was in no way associated to what we know as Roman catholic catholicism. Matter of fact I know (by reading scripture) that he would be directly oppose to it. You said there was not one iota of historical evidence. I just posted it from a "secular" (non-Catholic) unbiased site that lists him as The First Pope of The Catholic Church. What is your response to the "historical" evidence I provided? Ok, show me a quote where Peter opposes The Catholic Church: [ Insert quote here...] |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 26, 2009 16:49:37 GMT -5
Watchman, you REALLLY make me love Catholicism even more! And you make me thank God everyday that I am not blinded by indoctrination and the philosophies of men. That I am dependent on God , His Word, and His Spirit alone.
1st John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. I would much rather accept the witness from heaven than the teachings of man. P.S. I answered CC's question and I answered it honestly Ok, so if Sola Fide/Sola Scriptura and Anti-Catholicism are "not" the indoctrination and philosophies of men, show me where in The Holy Bible The Apostle preached this... |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 26, 2009 16:50:22 GMT -5
The church fathers to me are the Apostles as well as Paul who is my Apostles since I am a Gentile, and the first century disciple that had direct contact with the Apostles such as PolyCarp, Irenaeus ect.... and yes, I do believe their teachings. As far as Pentecostal I am not sure what (belief system) you are referring to. Personally I am anti denominationalism, sooooo. However if you are talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit being given to the Church, that would be in the upper room Acts 2 Ok, so lets start here... Saint Irenaeus (Greek: Åἰñçíáῖïò), (2nd century AD - c. 202) was Bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, then a part of the Roman Empire (now Lyons, France). He was an early church father and apologist, and his writings were formative in the early development of Christian theology. He was a disciple of Saint Polycarp, who was said to be a disciple of Saint John the Evangelist. St Irenaeus's best-known book, Adversus Haereses or Against Heresies (c. 180) is a detailed attack on Gnosticism, which was then a serious threat to the Church, and especially on the system of the Gnostic Valentinus.[1] As the first great Catholic theologian, he emphasized the traditional elements in the Church, especially the episcopate, Scripture, and tradition.[1] Irenaeus wrote that the only way for Christians to retain unity was to humbly accept one doctrinal authority--episcopal councils.[2] Against the Gnostics, who said that they possessed a secret oral tradition from Jesus himself, Irenaeus maintained that the bishops in different cities are known as far back as the Apostles — and none of them were Gnostics — and that the bishops provided the only safe guide to the interpretation of Scripture.[3] His writings, with those of Clement and Ignatius, are taken to hint at papal primacy.[1] Irenaeus is the earliest witness to recognition of the canonical character of all four gospels.[4]Irenaeus is recognized as a saint by both the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church. His feast day is celebrated on June 28. In the 1962 calendar, his feast day is on July 3rd. This is only the case in this calendar. In earlier calendars, his feast day was the same as today (June 28th). The 1962 movement of the day was to accommodate a Vigil Mass of the Solemnity of Sts. Peter and Paul. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaeus  |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 26, 2009 16:52:39 GMT -5
That is the point of this whole thread both Polycarp and Irenaeus taught the Millennial reign of Christ as well as His premillennial return. The Roman Catholic Church denies that the millennium is truth. [/quote] So what you're saying is that you can believe in this because these "men's philosopihes" taught you to even though it's "not" approved by The Catholic Church that they obeyed and belonged to and are "not" found in Holy Scripture?  You place the teachings of "individuals" over the teachings of The Church even though the Bible says that it is "the Church" that is the pillar of truth (not individual men)? |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 26, 2009 16:54:00 GMT -5
P.S. i have nothing against the catholic or universal church, my problem is that the Roman Catholic church or what we know as catholicism is not what Irenaeus referred to when he uses the world ''Catholic'', he is referring to the ''one Universal truth'' not Roman catholic catholicism. See my quotes from Irenaeus on The Roman Catholic Church.  |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Feb 26, 2009 17:02:32 GMT -5
If he was a Bishop, then that means that he aligns himself with the "Roman Catholic Church" being that we are the only Religion that has Bishops. You cannot deny that, and so that proves that he is talking about the Roman Catholic Church!  |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 26, 2009 17:20:22 GMT -5
If he was a Bishop, then that means that he aligns himself with the "Roman Catholic Church" being that we are the only Religion that has Bishops. You cannot deny that, and so that proves that he is talking about the Roman Catholic Church! Not only that, he attests to The Church having been founded "in" Rome (unless, now he's going to "cafetirially" NOT believe in that because The Catholic Church believes that too). |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 26, 2009 17:24:02 GMT -5
The church fathers to me are the Apostles as well as Paul who is my Apostles since I am a Gentile, and the first century disciple that had direct contact with the Apostles such as PolyCarp, Irenaeus ect.... and yes, I do believe their teachings. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 26, 2009 17:59:06 GMT -5
P.S. i have nothing against the catholic or universal church, my problem is that the Roman Catholic church or what we know as catholicism is not what Irenaeus referred to when he uses the world ''Catholic'', he is referring to the ''one Universal truth'' not Roman catholic catholicism. But when The Church Fathers talk about "the universal (catholic) church", they are talking about the one they defend "in" Rome. Are you saying that The Church Fathers were lying when they said that The Church was founded in Rome? And, if we're not supposed to believe in the Universal (Catholic) Church that was founded in Rome, then which one are we supposed to believe in? If you say "not Roman catholic catholicism", then "which" Roman Universal Church were The Church Fathers talking about? Wait a minute...you're saying that when Irenaus uses the word "Catholic" in regards to The Church, he's not talking about a "church", but about ''one Universal truth''? What does that mean then? Why did he call this "one Universal (Catholic) truth" the Church if it's "not" The Church in Rome that he also defends? You do believe that The Catholic Church is the only one that teaches that The Church is made of up only "one" religious group and "not" of different denominations because that is what Paul taught us scripturally, right? According to Paul ("your" Apostle, even though The Bible says that God chose Peter to be The Apostle to The Gentiles), you "can't" have different religious beliefs and still be in the "same" Church. Do you accept Paul's teaching on this? Or reject it? Since your personal belief does conflict with his scriptural teaching...  |
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Post by watchman on Feb 26, 2009 18:11:36 GMT -5
If he was a Bishop, then that means that he aligns himself with the "Roman Catholic Church" being that we are the only Religion that has Bishops. You cannot deny that, and so that proves that he is talking about the Roman Catholic Church! When he said catholic church he meant the universal church, The ''Roman Catholic Church'' did not exist when these statements were made. |
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Post by watchman on Feb 26, 2009 18:14:16 GMT -5
Now I could have a civil discussion with teresa or CC, but any religion that ceppha is a part of isd not of God and i would want to be as far away from it as possible. So if the two of you claim to believe as cepha does then? ? |
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