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Post by watchman on Jun 2, 2009 9:13:02 GMT -5
He is ordained through the Church of God a pentecostal denomination and the church I go to is a Church of God denomination. I am submitted to him as my Pastor but not to the denomination itself. I refuse to join the church because I do not want to be submitted to them. To be honest I do not agree with everything they teach. Although my Pastor does not teach those things in our church so I to not mind being a regular attender under his authority. I feel sorry for you. It must be sad for you to not have a fellowship with other believers. This shows how little you know of me. I have fellowship with many believers. 90% of all my friends are believers. To be honest I am most happy when I am with my wife and two sons. Nope you need not feel sorry for me, my life is filled with the joy of the Lord ;D |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 2, 2009 9:20:21 GMT -5
I feel sorry for you. It must be sad for you to not have a fellowship with other believers. This shows how little you know of me. I have fellowship with many believers. 90% of all my friends are believers. To be honest I am most happy when I am with my wife and two sons. Nope you need not feel sorry for me, my life is filled with the joy of the Lord ;D If you see it that way, I can't argue, but now I see why you're so angry and bitter with Catholicism. We have what you don't have and can't find outside of The Catholic Church for yourself...a "family" of believers. We greatly announce our affiliation to Christ's Church. You can't name one church you believe in. If I'm not mistaken, for you, The Church is some mystical body of believers and nothing else. Correct? |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 2, 2009 9:40:18 GMT -5
But it isn't just one Pastor we are to submit to, it is ALL that God has placed in authority in the Church.
And even more than that,
15You know that the household of Stephanas were the first converts in Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the service of the saints. I urge you, brothers, 16to submit to such as these and to everyone who joins in the work, and labors at it.(1 Cor 16)
19Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. (Ephesians 5)
17Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. (Hebrews 13)
For Catholics, this is so easy. We know who our leaders are. We also don't have a problem submitting to one another because we all believe the same doctrine, the same creed, the same Catechism. We don't have to be suspicious of each other--that they are some kind of heretics (though occasionally things like that happen)
Catholics don't have to use up all their spiritual energy trying to figure out doctrine or compare what we believe to our pastor or the church down the street to make sure we are right and they are wrong.
Actually (to Cepha) that is probably why Protestants DO read the Bible more than Catholics. We read it to meditate on it and and study and pray, but before I was Catholic, most of the time that I spent reading the Bible was trying to figure out what I believed it meant!
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Post by Cepha on Jun 2, 2009 9:57:10 GMT -5
Actually (to Cepha) that is probably why Protestants DO read the Bible more than Catholics. We read it to meditate on it and and study and pray, but before I was Catholic, most of the time that I spent reading the Bible was trying to figure out what I believed it meant! I know that's true. This is why they have 33,000+ different versions of interpretations and we have 1.4 Billion Christians who all believe in "one" belief. We are certainly not a house divided amongst ourselves. For us, you're either Catholic or your not. We're not Southern Catholic, Reformed Catholic, Independent Catholic, Non-Denominational Catholic, etc... Paul taught very clearly about Christians having their own sects and divisions. Surely a divided church cannot be "one" at the same time. I believe that they (NCC) want the truth, but that their "truth" changes everytime they change churches. I've met very few NCC's that have been in their Denomination their whole lives. The overwhelming majority have jumped from church to church within Protestantism where as Catholics just leave The Church altogether when they dont' agree with it because they can't jump from Church to Church when there is only one Catholic Church. Look at Padre Alberto? He HAD TO leave Catholicism in order to keep fornicating with another man's wife. We wouldn't accept that behavior. I've always challenged Anti-Catholics to try to disprove Catholicism without doctrines of man, to simply use The Bible. Not one was able to. They would immediately go to a souce outside of The Bible to try. They could never do it Biblically. We are supposed to be submitted to The Church (the heirchy of religious leaders) as instructed by scripture. Period. There is no negotiation on that for anybody who believes in scripture as written. Anybody who accepts Paul as a minor Apostle would have to agree to this. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 2, 2009 12:08:25 GMT -5
This shows how little you know of me. I have fellowship with many believers. 90% of all my friends are believers. To be honest I am most happy when I am with my wife and two sons. Nope you need not feel sorry for me, my life is filled with the joy of the Lord ;D If you see it that way, I can't argue, but now I see why you're so angry and bitter with Catholicism. We have what you don't have and can't find outside of The Catholic Church for yourself...a "family" of believers. We greatly announce our affiliation to Christ's Church. You can't name one church you believe in. If I'm not mistaken, for you, The Church is some mystical body of believers and nothing else. Correct? I am not angry or bitter with Catholicism, because I do not bow down to its false teaching and call it the one true church doesn't make me angry or bitter. I do have a church family. The Church is not mystical it is all true believers. Do you deny that? |
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Post by watchman on Jun 2, 2009 12:10:35 GMT -5
But it isn't just one Pastor we are to submit to, it is ALL that God has placed in authority in the Church. And even more than that, 15You know that the household of Stephanas were the first converts in Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the service of the saints. I urge you, brothers, 16to submit to such as these and to everyone who joins in the work, and labors at it.(1 Cor 16) 19Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. (Ephesians 5) 17Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. (Hebrews 13) For Catholics, this is so easy. We know who our leaders are. We also don't have a problem submitting to one another because we all believe the same doctrine, the same creed, the same Catechism. We don't have to be suspicious of each other--that they are some kind of heretics (though occasionally things like that happen) Catholics don't have to use up all their spiritual energy trying to figure out doctrine or compare what we believe to our pastor or the church down the street to make sure we are right and they are wrong. Actually (to Cepha) that is probably why Protestants DO read the Bible more than Catholics. We read it to meditate on it and and study and pray, but before I was Catholic, most of the time that I spent reading the Bible was trying to figure out what I believed it meant! Mt Pastor and my mom are the only ones God has place in a position of authority over me, and I do submit to them both. ;D |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 2, 2009 12:11:24 GMT -5
I am not angry or bitter with Catholicism, because I do not bow down to its false teaching and call it the one true church doesn't make me angry or bitter. You're right...it's your insulting The Catholic Church that makes you seem angry and bitter with it (not your refusal to yield to it). Are you "affilitated" to it? I asked you first. When you answer me, then I will answer you. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 2, 2009 12:12:53 GMT -5
I asked you first. When you answer me, then I will answer you. DUH, the answer is in the sentence you claim to not have an answer in it. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 2, 2009 12:13:08 GMT -5
Mt Pastor and my mom are the onlyone God has place in a position of authority over me, and I do submit to them both. ;D But The Bible says that God placed "men" (plural) in positions of authority over all of us as Believers. Where did you get the information that God only placed one man for you to submit yourself to? What about your father? Doesn't he have authority over you? Why not? |
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Post by watchman on Jun 2, 2009 12:14:33 GMT -5
Mt Pastor and my mom are the onlyone God has place in a position of authority over me, and I do submit to them both. ;D But The Bible says that God placed "men" (plural) in positions of authority over all of us as Believers. Where did you get the information that God only placed one man for you to submit yourself to? What about your father? Doesn't he have authority over you? Why not? No, because he is dead. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 2, 2009 12:16:10 GMT -5
I am not angry or bitter with Catholicism, because I do not bow down to its false teaching and call it the one true church doesn't make me angry or bitter. You're right...it's your insulting The Catholic Church that makes you seem angry and bitter with it (not your refusal to yield to it). If the truth insults you, that is your problem. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 2, 2009 12:16:20 GMT -5
I asked you first. When you answer me, then I will answer you. DUH, the answer is in the sentence you claim to not have an answer in it. You are confusing me. Here is the question I asked you that you didn't answer. When you answer this one, I will answer yours: If I'm not mistaken, for you, The Church is some mystical body of believers and nothing else.
Correct? |
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Post by watchman on Jun 2, 2009 12:18:49 GMT -5
DUH, the answer is in the sentence you claim to not have an answer in it. You are confusing me. Here is the question I asked you that you didn't answer. When you answer this one, I will answer yours: If I'm not mistaken, for you, The Church is some mystical body of believers and nothing else.
Correct?The answer NO IT IS NOT JUST MYSTICAL, it is all true believers. Do you deny that? |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 2, 2009 12:19:59 GMT -5
But The Bible says that God placed "men" (plural) in positions of authority over all of us as Believers. Where did you get the information that God only placed one man for you to submit yourself to? What about your father? Doesn't he have authority over you? Why not? No, because he is dead. Oh, OK. When he was alive, he had authority over you. What about my other question? Where did you get the information that God only placed one man for you to submit yourself to?The Bible says "men" (plural). |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 2, 2009 12:23:13 GMT -5
You are confusing me. Here is the question I asked you that you didn't answer. When you answer this one, I will answer yours: If I'm not mistaken, for you, The Church is some mystical body of believers and nothing else.
Correct?The answer NO IT IS NOT JUST MYSTICAL, it is all true believers. Do you deny that? Yes I deny that because it's against Biblical teaching. The Church is also a magisterium. It is a teaching authority. Not only does it include all Christians, but by default, it includes The Bishops, Deacons, Priests, [teaching authroities] etc...because they are Christians and are authoritaties put over us. The Church is also The Bride of Christ. It is also a regional group of Christians. The Church has several meanings (not "just" being a mystical body and/or group of Christians). |
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Post by watchman on Jun 2, 2009 12:25:10 GMT -5
Oh, OK. When he was alive, he had authority over you. What about my other question? Where did you get the information that God only placed one man for you to submit yourself to?The Bible says "men" (plural). There is no assistant pastor elder ect... in that church to help guide or train me, if there were I would submit to them. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 2, 2009 12:28:28 GMT -5
The answer NO IT IS NOT JUST MYSTICAL, it is all true believers. Do you deny that? Yes I deny that because it's against Biblical teaching. The Church is also a magisterium. It is a teaching authority. Not only does it include all Christians, but by default, it includes The Bishops, Deacons, Priests, [teaching authroities] etc...because they are Christians and are authoritaties put over us. The Church is also The Bride of Christ. It is also a regional group of Christians. The Church has several meanings (not "just" being a mystical body and/or group of Christians). Not all priest, bishops, deacons teach the truth nor are they all true believers therefore that are not part of the bride. The true bride of Christ is the Church I am referring to. Only true believers that are actually going to go to Heaven is a part of the ''universal'' Church that I am a part of. The RCC is a religious organization that have a few members of the true church within it it itself is not the true church. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 2, 2009 12:43:17 GMT -5
Not all priest, bishops, deacons teach the truth nor are they all true believers therefore that are not part of the bride. All those chosen by God do. ;D Again, which one? You can't say it has no name because that would mean it has no identity. So, it has to have a name. What is the name of that Church? I say it's The Universal Church (so does history and The Church Fathers). Name that church.... The Universal Christian Church founded in Rome by The Apostles (as stated by The Church Fathers) has become corrupt? So, Jesus was wrong according to you (that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church) since Jesus started The Universal Christian Church founded in Rome by The Apostles (aka The RCC). |
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Post by watchman on Jun 2, 2009 12:51:42 GMT -5
The apostles did not found the RCC, that is something you have been indoctrinated to believe.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 2, 2009 12:55:45 GMT -5
The apostles did not found the RCC, that is something you have been indoctrinated to believe. What, all of a sudden Ireneaus is wrong? Irenaeus"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).
"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul—that church which has the tradition and the faith with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:2).
"Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time" (ibid., 3:3:4).
"Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth, so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. . . . For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant conversation, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question?" (ibid., 3:4:1).
"t is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church—those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth" (ibid., 4:26:2).
"The true knowledge is the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which succession the bishops have handed down the Church which is found everywhere" (ibid., 4:33:8). |
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