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Post by watchman on Jun 2, 2009 20:00:09 GMT -5
Do you want to debate pre vs post in the debate forum?
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Post by Ramon on Jun 2, 2009 20:47:25 GMT -5
alfie, If you believe in this Pre-Trib Rapture, a doctrine that came in existences in the 18th century, then you believe in non-Biblical doctrine. It is a doctrine based upon a few Scriptural texts taken out of context to prove this un-Orthodox doctrine. Nothing in Scriptures supports a Pre-Trib Rapture. In fact, Christ' parable of about the Wheat and the Tares proves that the "Rapture" occurs at the end of the age not before (Matthew 13). As far as 2 Thes 2:3-12 is concern, the belief that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit is a opinion, not a actual teaching in Scriptures. The Church in the Thessalonians knew what Saint Paul was talking about, but we do not. He never said who was the restrainer (obviously knew by the Church he was writing about). Let see how this was understood in the Early Church. Saint John Chyrsostom, a 4th Century great Preacher, said this: "One may naturally enquire, what is that which withholds, and after that would know, why Paul expresses it so obscurely. What then is it that withholds, that is, hinders him from being revealed? Some indeed say, the grace of the Spirit, but others the Roman empire, to whom I most of all accede. Wherefore? Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him. And otherwise he ought now to have come, if he was about to come when the gifts ceased; for they have long since ceased. But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end. And he did not say that it will be quickly, although he is always saying it— but what? "that he may be revealed in his own season," he says,
"For the mystery of lawlessness does already work." He speaks here of Nero, as if he were the type of Antichrist. For he too wished to be thought a god. And he has well said, "the mystery"; that is, it works not openly, as the other, nor without shame."
Homily 4 on Second Thessalonians, www.newadvent.org/fathers/23054.htmThe Pre-Trib Rapture, a doctrine no where taught by anyone either in the West or East but arose in the 18th century, can not be supported by Scriptures or the Early Church Fathers. Protestant Pastor John L. Bray hit right in the door dob when he said: "Though many believe and teach this "Pre-Tribulation Rapture" theory, they erroneously do so, because neither Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, nor any of the other writers of the Bible taught this. Nor did the Early Church Fathers, nor any others for many hundreds of years [...] Did you know that NONE of this were ever taught prior to 1812, and that all forms of Pre-Tribulation Rapture teaching were developed since that date? If I were to preach something, or believe something, supposedly from the Bible, but cannot find ANYONE ELSE before 1812 ever believed it or taught I would seriously question the Scripturealness of it!"As quoted in Father Stanley Samuel Harakas book entitled "Orthodox Christian Beliefs About the Bible" (page 210). Scriptures and Tradition only teach a Second Coming of Christ not two more comings of Christ. The Rapture he Pre-Trib view is inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12 where the "rapture" and the Second Coming occur together. Please read Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thess. 1:1-12. Although I firmly believe that the Pre-Trib Rapture is a heresy, I believe we all agree that Christ IS coming back, and that we all need to be ready. Far too many Christians are concern about the End-Time and when Christ is coming back (what good does that do? Nothing! Heresies has sprout up because some Christians "curiosity"). We all need to study Sacred Scriptures, pray, and fast more. We need to inmate Christ and His Holy Saints each day. Our main goal is to live in communion with Christ and his Church. We are partakers of His Divine Nature as Saint Peter wrote. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by alfie on Jun 2, 2009 21:11:27 GMT -5
In my Bible (in Revelation verses 5, 6, and 7) the word "he' is capitalized so that would never be the angel Michael. In the Bible when he is capitalized it is always in reference to God. The restrainer is not mentioned in the book of Revelation. Further more what chapters are you referring to 2nd Thees chapter 2 verses 5, 6, and 7? Sorry, I meant 2 Thessalonians 2:5,6 7 |
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Post by alfie on Jun 2, 2009 21:20:21 GMT -5
The Belief that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit is an opinion at best. It is not something that can be proven with scripture,. However the fact that the rapture occurs at the post trib 2nd coming can be confirm with many passages of scripture. The tribulation is for the Jews (not Christians) to finally get them to accept Jesus. |
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Post by Ramon on Jun 2, 2009 21:27:20 GMT -5
The Belief that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit is an opinion at best. It is not something that can be proven with scripture,. However the fact that the rapture occurs at the post trib 2nd coming can be confirm with many passages of scripture. The tribulation is for the Jews (not Christians) to finally get them to accept Jesus. Really? Funny.....Scriptures never taught that (which is why you didn't mention or quoted a Scripture in your above post)! In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by alfie on Jun 2, 2009 21:43:22 GMT -5
The promise to the believers in Philadephia is Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I will keep thee from the hour of temptation that will come upon the earth.
1Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Post by Ramon on Jun 2, 2009 22:01:18 GMT -5
The promise to the believers in Philadephia is Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I will keep thee from the hour of temptation that will come upon the earth. 1Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. I knew you post that Scripture sooner or later. Now....Christ can protect his Church during the Tribulation. But why must you limit his protection to simply a "rapture" of the Church? Does the text said that? No. Revelation 3:10 does not state Christ will "rapture" his Church to protect them. Christ will preserve the Saints during the trail (See John 17:15) and protect them from demonic assaults. Although the faithful will not be rescued from sufferings, persecution, and martyrdom, they will be sustained and supported so as to persevere in there faithfulness. On the other hand, Christ' promise was for one Church in Asia Minor (in that time). It is not proper to make the promise given to an individual church in Asia some generalized promise for all churches of all time. The church of Smyrna is told that they 'will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful unto death.' (Rev.2:10) They are not promised protection from the coming time of tribulation. They were not promised to be "rapture out". It is improper to assume that the Church in Philadelphia is the "end time" Church, as if Saint John wrote his book to speak about the end times. There is no need to invent a doctrine that will "raptured" the Saints on Earth before the Tribulation. The Pre-Trib Rapture can no where be supported in Scriptures. Christ clearly taught that the Rapture will happened at the end of the age, at the Second Coming, not before (Matthew 13). Did God "rapture" Noah from the Flood in Genesis? No. But he did protect him and his family and preserve them while the ungodly was destroyed. In the entire Scriptures, God has preserve his faithful (protecting them). There is only two (or three) instance in Scriptures when God chose to take someone to heaven (Enoch, Elijah, and perhaps Moses) (the Holy Virgin Mary, the Theotokos was taken to heaven [body and soul/resurrected] three days after her death, according to Early Church Tradition), yet these are exceptions and not the norm. He did so for his own purpose. Christ and the Holy Apostles told us to preserve unto the end, to keep faithful, keep following Christ and His Saints! He can protect his Church without a silly rapture. For the past 2,000 years, God has sustained and supported his Faithful so as to persevere in there faithfulness. And he will continue do so, even in the Tribulation. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by alfie on Jun 2, 2009 22:43:21 GMT -5
The promise to the believers in Philadephia is Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I will keep thee from the hour of temptation that will come upon the earth. 1Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. I knew you post that Scripture sooner or later. Now....Christ can protect his Church during the Tribulation. But why must you limit his protection to simply a "rapture" of the Church? Does the text said that? No. Revelation 3:10 does not state Christ will "rapture" his Church to protect them. Christ will preserve the Saints during the trail (See John 17:15) and protect them from demonic assaults. Although the faithful will not be rescued from sufferings, persecution, and martyrdom, they will be sustained and supported so as to persevere in there faithfulness. On the other hand, Christ' promise was for one Church in Asia Minor (in that time). It is not proper to make the promise given to an individual church in Asia some generalized promise for all churches of all time. The church of Smyrna is told that they 'will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful unto death.' (Rev.2:10) They are not promised protection from the coming time of tribulation. They were not promised to be "rapture out". It is improper to assume that the Church in Philadelphia is the "end time" Church, as if Saint John wrote his book to speak about the end times. There is no need to invent a doctrine that will "raptured" the Saints on Earth before the Tribulation. The Pre-Trib Rapture can no where be supported in Scriptures. Christ clearly taught that the Rapture will happened at the end of the age, at the Second Coming, not before (Matthew 13). Did God "rapture" Noah from the Flood in Genesis? No. But he did protect him and his family and preserve them while the ungodly was destroyed. In the entire Scriptures, God has preserve his faithful (protecting them). There is only two (or three) instance in Scriptures when God chose to take someone to heaven (Enoch, Elijah, and perhaps Moses) (the Holy Virgin Mary, the Theotokos was taken to heaven [body and soul/resurrected] three days after her death, according to Early Church Tradition), yet these are exceptions and not the norm. He did so for his own purpose. Christ and the Holy Apostles told us to preserve unto the end, to keep faithful, keep following Christ and His Saints! In IC.XC, Ramon Why would Noah or Lot (he was also protected) be raptured when Jesus hadn't even been born, died and resurrected? It wasn't the end times? Sheeeeeeeez! If you read the book of Revelations in the first three chapters the word church is mentioned 20 times. But starting at chapter four there no longer is any mention of the church. |
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Post by Ramon on Jun 2, 2009 22:53:46 GMT -5
Why would Noah or Lot (he was also protected) be raptured when Jesus hadn't even been born, died and resurrected? It wasn't the end times? Sheeeeeeeez! No, you tell me. I am not one who believe God can "only" protect his Church if he rapture them into heaven. I am not the one who interpret Revelation 3:10 as referring to a Pre-Trib Rapture even though the text does not state so. Also, Jesus (the Son, the Word) "existed" before his Holy Incarnation (John 1:1). Sheeeeeeez!  At his Incarnation, he became flesh (verse 14) without giving up what he was (divine, God). He was One Person with Two Natures, untied together, without confusion, mixing, or mingling. If you read the book of Revelations in the first three chapters the word church is mentioned 20 times. But starting at chapter four there no longer is any mention of the church. And that proves what? If you read Revelation, many of the vision occur in heaven not on Earth. Common Sense, don't you think!  Of course, you take Revelation as a book referring to the end-times and very literal which explains why you held to many false teachings concerning the "End-Times". Again, you have not prove Pre-Trib Rapture. It does not exist in Scriptures. Please read the above Scriptures I posted. It prove that the Pre-Trib Rapture theory is a false teaching. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by alfie on Jun 2, 2009 23:17:11 GMT -5
Why would Noah or Lot (he was also protected) be raptured when Jesus hadn't even been born, died and resurrected? It wasn't the end times? Sheeeeeeeez! No, you tell me. I am not one who believe God can "only" protect his Church if he rapture them into heaven. I am not the one who interpret Revelation 3:10 as referring to a Pre-Trib Rapture even though the text does not state so. Also, Jesus (the Son, the Word) "existed" before his Holy Incarnation (John 1:1). Sheeeeeeez! At his Incarnation, he became flesh (verse 14) without giving up what he was (divine, God). He was One Person with Two Natures, untied together, without confusion, mixing, or mingling. If you read the book of Revelations in the first three chapters the word church is mentioned 20 times. But starting at chapter four there no longer is any mention of the church. And that proves what? If you read Revelation, many of the vision occur in heaven not on Earth. Common Sense, don't you think! Of course, you take Revelation as a book referring to the end-times and very literal which explains why you held to many false teachings concerning the "End-Times". Again, you have not prove Pre-Trib Rapture. It does not exist in Scriptures. Please read the above Scriptures I posted. It prove that the Pre-Trib Rapture theory is a false teaching. In IC.XC, Ramon John was commanded to write Revelation 1:19 (New International Version) 19"Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. These three events don't occur at the same time. First, John saw the vision of the Lord and that was the end of it. Then he saw the churches in Asia Minor and he wrote the messages delivered to the churches which brings the second event to an end. What takes place later is the true church is caught up, while the lukewarm church is spued out. After the Ladiceans are spued out John says AFTER THIS I LOOKED AND BEHOLD, A DOOR WAS OPENED IN HEAVEN. So it is obvious the church was taken up. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 2, 2009 23:19:09 GMT -5
The promise to the believers in Philadephia is Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I will keep thee from the hour of temptation that will come upon the earth. 1Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. The tribulation is not God wrath and God can keep us from temptation with other methods besides removing us from the earth. John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.Honestly I think you would enjoy the debate, give me the go ahead and i will set up the thread. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 2, 2009 23:25:02 GMT -5
If you read the book of Revelations in the first three chapters the word church is mentioned 20 times. But starting at chapter four there no longer is any mention of the church. This is a misnomer, The church is mentioned all through the book of Revelation. Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Who are the followers of Christ , these saints, are they not part of the Church the bride of Christ? All believers/followers of Christ are members of God's Church, are they not? Those are just a few examples of where the church is mentioned during the Tribulation in the book of Revelation |
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Post by alfie on Jun 2, 2009 23:28:00 GMT -5
The promise to the believers in Philadephia is Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I will keep thee from the hour of temptation that will come upon the earth. 1Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. The tribulation is not God wrath and God can keep us from temptation with other methods besides removing us from the earth. John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.Honestly I think you would enjoy the debate, give me the go ahead and i will set up the thread. After chapter 3 of Revelation we no longer see Jesus on the earth. Rather we see a throne in heaven and Jesus is sitting on it. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 2, 2009 23:29:12 GMT -5
No, you tell me. I am not one who believe God can "only" protect his Church if he rapture them into heaven. I am not the one who interpret Revelation 3:10 as referring to a Pre-Trib Rapture even though the text does not state so. Also, Jesus (the Son, the Word) "existed" before his Holy Incarnation (John 1:1). Sheeeeeeez! At his Incarnation, he became flesh (verse 14) without giving up what he was (divine, God). He was One Person with Two Natures, untied together, without confusion, mixing, or mingling. And that proves what? If you read Revelation, many of the vision occur in heaven not on Earth. Common Sense, don't you think! Of course, you take Revelation as a book referring to the end-times and very literal which explains why you held to many false teachings concerning the "End-Times". Again, you have not prove Pre-Trib Rapture. It does not exist in Scriptures. Please read the above Scriptures I posted. It prove that the Pre-Trib Rapture theory is a false teaching. In IC.XC, Ramon John was commanded to write Revelation 1:19 (New International Version) 19"Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. These three events don't occur at the same time. First, John saw the vision of the Lord and that was the end of it. Then he saw the churches in Asia Minor and he wrote the messages delivered to the churches which brings the second event to an end. What takes place later is the true church is caught up, while the lukewarm church is spued out. After the Ladiceans are spued out John says AFTER THIS I LOOKED AND BEHOLD, A DOOR WAS OPENED IN HEAVEN. So it is obvious the church was taken up. First of all the NIV is corruption, not scripture, secondly Revelation 4:1 has nothing to do with the rapture it was John and only John that was caught up, he was having a vision. This is not a picture of the pretrib rapture. Really give me the go ahead I will show you beyond any shadow of any doubt that the gathering together is at the post trib 2nd coming. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 2, 2009 23:32:08 GMT -5
The tribulation is not God wrath and God can keep us from temptation with other methods besides removing us from the earth. John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.Honestly I think you would enjoy the debate, give me the go ahead and i will set up the thread. After chapter 3 of Revelation we no longer see Jesus on the earth. Rather we see a throne in heaven and Jesus is sitting on it. So John had a vision of Heaven how does that prove the pretrib rapture? |
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Post by watchman on Jun 2, 2009 23:40:25 GMT -5
I will set up a debate thread with a 6 point proof for the post trib rapture (which will include scripture), and then we can debate each point one by one until we agree or agree to disagree on each point, and then you can make a case for the pretrib rapture we can debate your points, and I guarantee you if you go into the debate just wanting the truth, not trying to only believe what you have been taught, you will come out of it a post trib believer. At the very least giving it serious consideration.
There is nothing to be scared of it should be are pleasure to suffer for Christ.
Acts 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
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Post by Ramon on Jun 3, 2009 20:04:01 GMT -5
Ramon John was commanded to write Revelation 1:19 (New International Version) 19"Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. These three events don't occur at the same time. First, John saw the vision of the Lord and that was the end of it. Then he saw the churches in Asia Minor and he wrote the messages delivered to the churches which brings the second event to an end. What takes place later is the true church is caught up, while the lukewarm church is spued out. After the Ladiceans are spued out John says AFTER THIS I LOOKED AND BEHOLD, A DOOR WAS OPENED IN HEAVEN. So it is obvious the church was taken up. The text does not say that the true Church is caught up! That's your opinion based upon a text that does NOT say such thing. Saint John ALONE was commanded to "come up" to see the rest of the visions. Let's stick to what the text said shall we.You are having trouble proving the Pre-Trib Rapture. All you during is posting Scriptures and trying to make us believe something that the text does not say. Please reread the Scriptures I posted. If you search the Scriptures and open your mind to the Apostolic Truth, you will see that what you been told by your Protestant Pastor (whether on purpose or out of ignorance) is extra-biblical teaching. Christ' Parable about the Wheat and the Tares (Matthew 13) prove that the Rapture of the Church occurs at the end of age, after the Tribulation. I believe you should stick to the teachings of Jesus Christ, the God-Man, instead of what your Protestant Pastor told you one Sunday Morning..... In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by Ramon on Jun 3, 2009 20:07:38 GMT -5
The tribulation is not God wrath and God can keep us from temptation with other methods besides removing us from the earth. John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.Honestly I think you would enjoy the debate, give me the go ahead and i will set up the thread. After chapter 3 of Revelation we no longer see Jesus on the earth. Rather we see a throne in heaven and Jesus is sitting on it. And that's prove what exactly......?  |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 3, 2009 20:33:49 GMT -5
Please alfie, just think logically about this "rapture" idea.
If Jesus came back and took the believers then he would have to come another time after that to fulfill the rest of the prophecies. So you really believe Jesus returns 2 times?
Do you believe that when the rapture happens that everyone will see Jesus then, or not until later?
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Post by Ramon on Jun 3, 2009 20:52:34 GMT -5
Please alfie, just think logically about this "rapture" idea. If Jesus came back and took the believers then he would have to come another time after that to fulfill the rest of the prophecies. So you really believe Jesus returns 2 times? Do you believe that when the rapture happens that everyone will see Jesus then, or not until later? Exactly. Scriptures and Tradition only teach a Second Coming of Jesus Christ. If we believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture theory, then we need to believe that there going to be a Second Coming of Jesus (which is the Rapture) and then a Third Coming of Jesus (after the Tribulation). Although Pre-Trib Rapture advocates usually say that the Second Coming of Jesus will occur in two stages (a theory not taught in Sacred Scriptures), in reality though, they believe Christ will come back two more times (instead of one which is what Scriptures teaches). You see? This 200 year old theory is inconsistent with Holy Scriptures and the Holy Fathers. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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At his Incarnation, he became flesh (verse 14) without giving up what he was (divine, God). He was One Person with Two Natures, untied together, without confusion, mixing, or mingling. 
Of course, you take Revelation as a book referring to the end-times and very literal which explains why you held to many false teachings concerning the "End-Times".