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Post by teresahrc on Jun 4, 2009 20:35:02 GMT -5
I think a lot of people (even Muslims) have a general idea that at some point Jesus is going to return.
But I think what some people may be laughing at is not the idea that Jesus is returning, but they may be laughing at things such as a website asking people to pay 40$ to make sure their loved ones are saved. They are probably laughing at the "Left Behind" books and movie because they are so ridiculous and people take them literally.
Some people just keep creating more and more reasons to make non-Christians laugh at us. Who's really laughing though?
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 4, 2009 20:46:41 GMT -5
I take Revelation literally....that is more ridiculous than the Left Behind series.
And I liked those movies, I looovvvee the name Chloe (the daughter), too bad it's so popular, I was considering it for a future daughter.
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 4, 2009 20:57:47 GMT -5
You take even the vision with the woman in the sky and the dragon literally?
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 4, 2009 20:58:58 GMT -5
Yes.
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Post by watchman on Jun 4, 2009 23:10:02 GMT -5
This is what a highly respected Catholic Commentary, The Navarre Bible, said about this: "Some commentators think that the mystery of lawlessness is the activity of the man of lawlessness (cf. 12), which is being restrained by the rigid laws enforced by the Roman Empire. Others suggested that Saint Michael is the one who is holding lawlessness back; they base this view on certain Scriptural texts (Dan 12:1; Rev 12:7-9; 20:1-3, 7). Finally, others think that the curb on the man of lawlessness is the active presence of Christians in the world, through word and example bring Christ's teaching and grace to many. If Christians let their zeal grow cold (this interpretation says), then the curb on evil will cease to apply and the rebellion will ensue. Another interpretation which currently has a following takes the "mystery of lawlessness" in a very general sense and says that what is being restrained and is still to be revealed is not the activity of the man of lawlessness but the second coming of Christ; which is preventing the Parousia happening is the fact that rebellion has not yet become rife, and the man of lawlessness has not yet appeared" (The Navarre Bible, The Letters of Saint Paul, page 536). The view that the restrainer is Saint Michael the Archangel is a very good interpretation, since Saint Michael the Archangel, according to Scriptures and Tradition, is the chief commander, of all the bodiless powers. According to Holy Scripture and Tradition, he has interceded for humanity multiple times and continues to serve as the Defender of the Faith. St. Michael is most often invoked for protection from invasion by enemies and from civil war, and for the defeat of adversaries on the field of battle. It will makes sense for him to be the one who withhold the restrainer! He is more typically pictures in Orthodox Icons as represented the Chief Commander of the Heavenly hosts, where he holds a sword in one hand; in the other he often carries either a shield, a date-tree branch, a spear, or a white banner (possibly with a scarlet cross). Some icons of the Archangel Michael (or the Archangel Gabriel) show the angel holding an orb in one hand and a staff in the other. In IC.XC, Ramon Very interesting  |
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Post by watchman on Jun 4, 2009 23:11:27 GMT -5
You take even the vision with the woman in the sky and the dragon literally? There is no reason to not take Revelation literally. As far as the Woman in the sky and the dragon, I believe that John literally had that vision. ;D |
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Post by watchman on Jun 4, 2009 23:12:14 GMT -5
Alfie, you want me to start the thread in the debate forum pretrib vs post?
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Post by Ramon on Jun 4, 2009 23:45:34 GMT -5
I take Revelation literally....that is more ridiculous than the Left Behind series. And I liked those movies, I looovvvee the name Chloe (the daughter), too bad it's so popular, I was considering it for a future daughter. I take Revelation literally.... Who told you to do so? The Book of Revelation is a highly symbolic book. It is dangerous to take the Book of Revelation as a footprint (map) indicating times, details, plans, and schedules of end-time events. If you take the book of revelation literally, do you believe they are going to be monsters (Dragons, beasts with multiple heads, etc) in the end-time masquerading as the Anti-Christ, false prophet, etc? Taking the Book of Revelation literally and as a footprint of End Times has lead to many false teachings, such as the Pre-Trib Rapture. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 8:31:18 GMT -5
 Are you a Jehovah's Witness or something?!?! How in the word did you come to that conclusion? Scripture please! Hahaha you really hate me don't you. Hate?  Where'd you get that idea from? What would make you want to believe that? To answer your question, no. I'd have to actually first "care" enough to hate anyone. And I don't. ;D No body ever said you said Micheal was Jesus. Why are you stating that? Because JW's said that? I asked you if you were a JW because you also seem to believe that Michael is somebody/something else other than just The Archangel of God. Which is what JW's believe (only for them, the other personality is Jesus where for you, it's The Restrainer). That doesn't call Michael "The Restrainer". Are you saying that God "meets" out evil through Michael? You're asking me for negative evidence. You're supposed to put up a scripture that proves what you said (that Michael is The Restrainer). You have'nt. You could also say that Saint Michael is The Michelin Man and I couldn't post any scripture denying that either.  As far as The Restrainer being one of the 3 parts of The Holy Trinity, I wasn't asking you about that. I was asking you about attributing another title to Saint Michael without it ever being mentioned in scripture (which is exactly what The Jehovah's Witnesses do). |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 8:52:23 GMT -5
Amen to that. Whenever the word he or him is capitolized (besides it coming in at the beginning of a sentence), it means either God, Jesus and/or The Holy Spirit. Many have speculated as to the identity of the restrainer, naming the restraining force as 1) human government; 2) gospel preaching; 3) the binding of Satan; 4) the providence of God; 5) the Jewish state; 6) the church; 7) the Holy Spirit; and 8) Michael. Whatever, or who ever the restrainer is the bible does not state. However we know that the Holy Spirit is not removed before the Tribulation as pretribbers claim, because the 144,000 Jews are saved as sealed during the Tribulation which could not happen if the Holy Spirit is not here on earth to draw them to salvation. So although many people may have their own opinion that is all it is, an opinion. There may be some opinions better than other, and seeing as the Holy Spirit can be excluded because of the salvation of the Jews during the Tribulation Micheal is a better opinion than the Holy Spirit. cepha, you will not find one scripture to support the teaching that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer (we both know that or should at least). So since scripture cannot confirm it, and you being Catholic, I ask you to show me where the catholics teach the restrainer is the Holy Spirit or where any of the ECFs did. LOL! I guess you're not as "Sola Scriptura" as you claim to be! LOL! Ok, let's take a look at 2 Thess... 2 Thessalonians 2:6
International Standard Version (©2008)
You know what it is that is now holding him back, so that he will be revealed when his time comes.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
You know what it is that now holds him back, so that he will be revealed when his time comes.
King James Bible
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
American King James Version
And now you know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time.
American Standard Version
And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
Bible in Basic English
And now it is clear to you what is keeping back his revelation till the time comes for him to be seen.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And now you know what withholdeth, that he may be revealed in his time.
Darby Bible Translation
And now ye know that which restrains, that he should be revealed in his own time.
English Revised Version
And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
Webster's Bible Translation
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
Weymouth New Testament
And now you know what restrains him, in order that his true character may be revealed at his appointed time.
World English Bible
Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
Young's Literal Translation
and now, what is keeping down ye have known, for his being revealed in his own time,
Now, is it just me, or does The Holy Bible make absolutely NO mention of a "who" doing any restraining here? It only says a "what". Yes? No?  |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 8:58:02 GMT -5
You take even the vision with the woman in the sky and the dragon literally? Did you see the documentary on EWTN where it was literally proven that at the time that John wrote The Book of Revelations, there were constellations in the sky (and The Jews believed in astronomy) that could each be attributed to the dragon, the virgin, the sun, etc...? www.bethlehemstar.net/ 
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Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 8:59:49 GMT -5
cepha do you believe the Holy Spirit as well as the Church is removed from the earth 7 years before the return of Christ? I don't know enough about that to answer. I'm not a "end of times" buff. ;D |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 9:00:42 GMT -5
cepha do you believe the Holy Spirit as well as the Church is removed from the earth 7 years before the return of Christ? But I can say this, I'll roll with The Church on this one. Whatever The Church teaches, "that's" what I'll believe! ;D |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 9:10:49 GMT -5
I take Revelation literally....that is more ridiculous than the Left Behind series. And I liked those movies, I looovvvee the name Chloe (the daughter), too bad it's so popular, I was considering it for a future daughter. I take Revelation literally.... Who told you to do so? The Book of Revelation is a highly symbolic book. It is dangerous to take the Book of Revelation as a footprint (map) indicating times, details, plans, and schedules of end-time events. If you take the book of revelation literally, do you believe they are going to be monsters (Dragons, beasts with multiple heads, etc) in the end-time masquerading as the Anti-Christ, false prophet, etc? Taking the Book of Revelation literally and as a footprint of End Times has lead to many false teachings, such as the Pre-Trib Rapture. Think about it...if she took Revelation literally, word for word, then she'd have to accept The Virgin Mary as her literal mother, because that's what Revelations 12:17 states. Right? If a person claims to take Rev literally but denies that Mary is their mother, then they don't take it literally. Or, does taking it literally mean "interpret it personally literally"? Not a stab at you Em, but to all those who "think" they take the bible literally, yet don't accept what it literally states and try to change or alter the meaning by offering an alternative explaination to it's literal text.  Emily, here is a test for you: Do you or do you not accept that Mary is your mother according to this scritpure when taken in the context of the entire chapter?
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 5, 2009 9:14:36 GMT -5
Ramon, where does Reveltion tell me I should not take it literally?
Steven, No, and I am not interested in any links.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 9:18:20 GMT -5
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Post by watchman on Jun 5, 2009 9:44:35 GMT -5
cepha do you believe the Holy Spirit as well as the Church is removed from the earth 7 years before the return of Christ? But I can say this, I'll roll with The Church on this one. Whatever The Church teaches, "that's" what I'll believe! ;D Then you better check out Ramon's post This is what a highly respected Catholic Commentary, The Navarre Bible, said about this: "Some commentators think that the mystery of lawlessness is the activity of the man of lawlessness (cf. 12), which is being restrained by the rigid laws enforced by the Roman Empire. Others suggested that Saint Michael is the one who is holding lawlessness back; they base this view on certain Scriptural texts (Dan 12:1; Rev 12:7-9; 20:1-3, 7). Finally, others think that the curb on the man of lawlessness is the active presence of Christians in the world, through word and example bring Christ's teaching and grace to many. If Christians let their zeal grow cold (this interpretation says), then the curb on evil will cease to apply and the rebellion will ensue. Another interpretation which currently has a following takes the "mystery of lawlessness" in a very general sense and says that what is being restrained and is still to be revealed is not the activity of the man of lawlessness but the second coming of Christ; which is preventing the Parousia happening is the fact that rebellion has not yet become rife, and the man of lawlessness has not yet appeared" (The Navarre Bible, The Letters of Saint Paul, page 536). The view that the restrainer is Saint Michael the Archangel is a very good interpretation, since Saint Michael the Archangel, according to Scriptures and Tradition, is the chief commander, of all the bodiless powers. According to Holy Scripture and Tradition, he has interceded for humanity multiple times and continues to serve as the Defender of the Faith. St. Michael is most often invoked for protection from invasion by enemies and from civil war, and for the defeat of adversaries on the field of battle. It will makes sense for him to be the one who withhold the restrainer! He is more typically pictures in Orthodox Icons as represented the Chief Commander of the Heavenly hosts, where he holds a sword in one hand; in the other he often carries either a shield, a date-tree branch, a spear, or a white banner (possibly with a scarlet cross). Some icons of the Archangel Michael (or the Archangel Gabriel) show the angel holding an orb in one hand and a staff in the other. In IC.XC, Ramon Sounds like the church thinks that Micheal the Arc Angel is a better opinion than the Holy Spirit, and that is exactly what I said to Alfie. The reality is no one really knows, not me, not alfie, not you, not the church. However the Holy Spirit can be excluded because He will be here during the Tribulation per the salvation of the 144,000 Jews. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 5, 2009 9:49:19 GMT -5
Hahaha you really hate me don't you. Hate? Where'd you get that idea from? What would make you want to believe that? To answer your question, no. I'd have to actually first "care" enough to hate anyone. And I don't. The reason I believe that it seems on some subjects such as this one. You disagree only to disagree. Why would you do that if you did not care? Yes JWs claim Jesus was Micheal the Arc angel before the incarnation. No I don't |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 10:06:49 GMT -5
The reason I believe that it seems on some subjects such as this one. You disagree only to disagree. Why would you do that if you did not care? To state that I disagree just to disagree is very conceited of you (that's assuming that I dont' actually disagree with you). As for why do I do what I do? Because I thoroughly enjoy to corner Anti-Catholics and to ride them hard and put them up wet! That's why! ;D And you "also" allude to Michael having some type of dual role (even though scripture doesn't state this). Just like The Jehovah's Witnesses...that's why I asked. ;D Well, wasn't it you that stated that this "restrainer" could possibly be The Archangel Michael too? |
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Post by watchman on Jun 5, 2009 12:05:40 GMT -5
The reason I believe that it seems on some subjects such as this one. You disagree only to disagree. Why would you do that if you did not care? To state that I disagree just to disagree is very conceited of you (that's assuming that I dont' actually disagree with you). As for why do I do what I do? Because I thoroughly enjoy to corner Anti-Catholics and to ride them hard and put them up wet! That's why! ;D And you "also" allude to Michael having some type of dual role (even though scripture doesn't state this). Just like The Jehovah's Witnesses...that's why I asked. ;D Well, wasn't it you that stated that this "restrainer" could possibly be The Archangel Michael too? Yes i do believe the restrainer could be Micheal but not because he is more than an Arc angel but because he is under orders from God to restrain the evil one until God says it is time to allow him to be revealed. Do you not believe Michael could do this when commanded by God to do so. If not you better check out those scriptures given by Ramon. |
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