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Post by teresahrc on Jun 3, 2009 22:01:29 GMT -5
22Then he said to his disciples, "The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them. 24For the Son of Man in his day[c] will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. So, how do people that believe in the rapture (as a second event from the Lord coming in Glory) understand this verse? Jesus is saying that there WON'T be some secret event that only some people will know about. When He returns, every eye will see Him. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4) This is not some separate event from the Lord's return. It is the same event. There is definitely no secret rapture like those books and movies where people's clothes are left on the airplane and nobody "left behind" knew what happened! You can call it the "rapture" if you want. The Church has always called it the resurrection of the dead. Also, it is true that "God has not appointed us to suffer wrath"... ButGod does allow Christians to suffer, and He disciplines us, and yes even allows "Tribulations"! That's totally different from "the wrath to come". Remember the whole thing about taking up our cross and following Jesus. A cross is well.... pretty much the worst tribulation I can think of. 32And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection; 36and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment.
37They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated
38(men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground. 39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect. Hebrews 11 We sent Timothy, who is our brother and co-worker in God's service in spreading the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith, 3 so that no one would be unsettled by these trials. You know quite well that we are destined for them. ( 1 Thess. 3)
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 3, 2009 22:09:13 GMT -5
Jesus doesn't come back, He's in the sky and we meet Him there.
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Post by Ramon on Jun 3, 2009 22:13:28 GMT -5
Jesus doesn't come back, He's in the sky and we meet Him there. That's the same thing! LOL ;D In all reality, A Pre-Trib Rapture=Second Coming of Christ. And then supposedly Christ comes again (for a third time). However, Scriptures only teach a Second Coming of Christ, not two more comings of Christ. Of course Pre-Trib Rapture advocates will deny Christ will come back two more times, but a close inspection of this doctrine will reveal that. |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 3, 2009 22:14:43 GMT -5
The sky is part of the earth, even if His feet don't touch the ground!
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 3, 2009 22:16:26 GMT -5
Maybe He doesn't leave heaven even. I don't know..all I know that we'll fly, float, whatever up there.
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 3, 2009 22:19:31 GMT -5
we aren't against that concept Emily, (of meeting the Lord in the air)
just the idea of some kind of secret rapture and all these people are left behind not knowing what happened.
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Post by Ramon on Jun 3, 2009 22:21:00 GMT -5
Maybe He doesn't leave heaven even. I don't know..all I know that we'll fly, float, whatever up there. But you just said that Christ will be in the sky (on Earth) and all the Saints will be caught up to meet him in the air supposedly before the Tribulation begins. In that case, then you believe in two more comings of Christ, not a Second Coming of Jesus Christ as taught in Scriptures and the writings of the Holy Fathers. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by Ramon on Jun 3, 2009 22:24:26 GMT -5
we aren't against that concept Emily, (of meeting the Lord in the air) just the idea of some kind of secret rapture and all these people are left behind not knowing what happened. Agree. What we reject is the meeting of the Lord in the air ("Rapture") before the Tribulation. The Church does not get rapture into heaven before the Tribulation....no such thing as a Pre-Trib Rapture (contradictory to Christ's words in Matthew 13). In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by watchman on Jun 3, 2009 23:00:16 GMT -5
Jesus doesn't come back, He's in the sky and we meet Him there. The why is it called the coming of the Lord, if it is not really referring to the coming of the Lord? 1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 3, 2009 23:09:28 GMT -5
Watchman, so you believe the same as us about this? That's cool.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 4, 2009 8:44:14 GMT -5
Actually there is no reason to believe that the restrainer is the holy Spirit more likely the restrainer is Micheal the Arc angel.  Are you a Jehovah's Witness or something?!?! How in the word did you come to that conclusion? Scripture please! |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 4, 2009 8:46:30 GMT -5
Actually there is no reason to believe that the restrainer is the holy Spirit more likely the restrainer is Micheal the Arc angel. I would love to have a pretrib vs post trib debate with you on the debate forum, not to prove you wrong, but to show you the truth. Would you like that? There need not be a winner or looser, but A debate between just me and you to show each other why we believe as we do? In my Bible (in Revelation verses 5, 6, and 7) the word "he' is capitalized so that would never be the angel Michael. In the Bible when he is capitalized it is always in reference to God. Amen to that. Whenever the word he or him is capitolized (besides it coming in at the beginning of a sentence), it means either God, Jesus and/or The Holy Spirit. |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 4, 2009 8:49:55 GMT -5
The people left here will more than likely know what's going on. They've been laughing at it for a long time...they know what it is.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 4, 2009 8:59:24 GMT -5
Please alfie, just think logically about this "rapture" idea. If Jesus came back and took the believers then he would have to come another time after that to fulfill the rest of the prophecies. So you really believe Jesus returns 2 times? Do you believe that when the rapture happens that everyone will see Jesus then, or not until later? Question: Who actually invented the term "rapture"? (Hint: It was a Catholic!) |
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Post by watchman on Jun 4, 2009 10:31:19 GMT -5
Watchman, so you believe the same as us about this? That's cool. Not really, Catholics do not believe in the Millennium. I believe in the post trib, premillennial return of Christ. However I do agree with you that the pretrib rapture is a 19th century man made invention, never mentioned in scripture and therefore untrue. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 4, 2009 10:35:34 GMT -5
Actually there is no reason to believe that the restrainer is the holy Spirit more likely the restrainer is Micheal the Arc angel. Are you a Jehovah's Witness or something?!?! How in the word did you come to that conclusion? Scripture please! Hahaha you really hate me don't you. I didn't say Micheal was Jesus I said He is the restrainer. You do realize that Micheal is the war angel order to restrain evil until God tells Him to allow it? Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.Now can you or anyone give any scripture to contradict what i have said or to show that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, God the Father, Jesus or anyone else outside of Micheal? When Micheal stands that is when the time of trouble shall start. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 4, 2009 10:45:14 GMT -5
cepha do you believe the Holy Spirit as well as the Church is removed from the earth 7 years before the return of Christ?
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Post by watchman on Jun 4, 2009 11:00:34 GMT -5
In my Bible (in Revelation verses 5, 6, and 7) the word "he' is capitalized so that would never be the angel Michael. In the Bible when he is capitalized it is always in reference to God. Amen to that. Whenever the word he or him is capitolized (besides it coming in at the beginning of a sentence), it means either God, Jesus and/or The Holy Spirit. Many have speculated as to the identity of the restrainer, naming the restraining force as 1) human government; 2) gospel preaching; 3) the binding of Satan; 4) the providence of God; 5) the Jewish state; 6) the church; 7) the Holy Spirit; and 8) Michael. Whatever, or who ever the restrainer is the bible does not state. However we know that the Holy Spirit is not removed before the Tribulation as pretribbers claim, because the 144,000 Jews are saved as sealed during the Tribulation which could not happen if the Holy Spirit is not here on earth to draw them to salvation. So although many people may have their own opinion that is all it is, an opinion. There may be some opinions better than other, and seeing as the Holy Spirit can be excluded because of the salvation of the Jews during the Tribulation Micheal is a better opinion than the Holy Spirit. cepha, you will not find one scripture to support the teaching that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer (we both know that or should at least). So since scripture cannot confirm it, and you being Catholic, I ask you to show me where the catholics teach the restrainer is the Holy Spirit or where any of the ECFs did. |
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Post by Ramon on Jun 4, 2009 11:25:15 GMT -5
Amen to that. Whenever the word he or him is capitolized (besides it coming in at the beginning of a sentence), it means either God, Jesus and/or The Holy Spirit. Many have speculated as to the identity of the restrainer, naming the restraining force as 1) human government; 2) gospel preaching; 3) the binding of Satan; 4) the providence of God; 5) the Jewish state; 6) the church; 7) the Holy Spirit; and 8) Michael. Whatever, or who ever the restrainer is the bible does not state. However we know that the Holy Spirit is not removed before the Tribulation as pretribbers claim, because the 144,000 Jews are saved as sealed during the Tribulation which could not happen if the Holy Spirit is not here on earth to draw them to salvation. So although many people may have their own opinion that is all it is, an opinion. There may be some opinions better than other, and seeing as the Holy Spirit can be excluded because of the salvation of the Jews during the Tribulation Micheal is a better opinion than the Holy Spirit. cepha, you will not find one scripture to support the teaching that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer (we both know that or should at least). So since scripture cannot confirm it, and you being Catholic, I ask you to show me where the catholics teach the restrainer is the Holy Spirit or where any of the ECFs did. I have to agree with you on this. Saint Paul never mention who was the restrainer because the Church of Thessalonians knew who he was talking up so he did not feel necessary to tell them (verse 3). However, it can not be the Holy Spirit for the reasons you posted. As far as Saint Michael the Archangel, all we have are opinions, some better than others, nothing more. As far as the Early Church Fathers, there was no consensus among them. Saint John Chrysostom, a 4th Century great Preacher, said this: "One may naturally enquire, what is that which withholds, and after that would know, why Paul expresses it so obscurely. What then is it that withholds, that is, hinders him from being revealed? Some indeed say, the grace of the Spirit, but others the Roman empire, to whom I most of all accede. Wherefore? Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him. And otherwise he ought now to have come, if he was about to come when the gifts ceased; for they have long since ceased. But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end. And he did not say that it will be quickly, although he is always saying it— but what? "that he may be revealed in his own season," he says,
"For the mystery of lawlessness does already work." He speaks here of Nero, as if he were the type of Antichrist. For he too wished to be thought a god. And he has well said, "the mystery"; that is, it works not openly, as the other, nor without shame."Homily 4 on Second Thessalonians, www.newadvent.org/fathers/23054.htmSaint John Chrysostom believe it was the Roman Empire. However, he does mention that some believe it was the grace of the Holy Spirit. Over time, various opinions arose as to who Saint Paul wrote about. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by Ramon on Jun 4, 2009 12:06:01 GMT -5
This is what a highly respected Catholic Commentary, The Navarre Bible, said about this:
"Some commentators think that the mystery of lawlessness is the activity of the man of lawlessness (cf. 12), which is being restrained by the rigid laws enforced by the Roman Empire. Others suggested that Saint Michael is the one who is holding lawlessness back; they base this view on certain Scriptural texts (Dan 12:1; Rev 12:7-9; 20:1-3, 7). Finally, others think that the curb on the man of lawlessness is the active presence of Christians in the world, through word and example bring Christ's teaching and grace to many. If Christians let their zeal grow cold (this interpretation says), then the curb on evil will cease to apply and the rebellion will ensue.
Another interpretation which currently has a following takes the "mystery of lawlessness" in a very general sense and says that what is being restrained and is still to be revealed is not the activity of the man of lawlessness but the second coming of Christ; which is preventing the Parousia happening is the fact that rebellion has not yet become rife, and the man of lawlessness has not yet appeared"
(The Navarre Bible, The Letters of Saint Paul, page 536).
The view that the restrainer is Saint Michael the Archangel is a very good interpretation, since Saint Michael the Archangel, according to Scriptures and Tradition, is the chief commander, of all the bodiless powers. According to Holy Scripture and Tradition, he has interceded for humanity multiple times and continues to serve as the Defender of the Faith. St. Michael is most often invoked for protection from invasion by enemies and from civil war, and for the defeat of adversaries on the field of battle. It will makes sense for him to be the one who withhold the restrainer!
He is more typically pictures in Orthodox Icons as represented the Chief Commander of the Heavenly hosts, where he holds a sword in one hand; in the other he often carries either a shield, a date-tree branch, a spear, or a white banner (possibly with a scarlet cross). Some icons of the Archangel Michael (or the Archangel Gabriel) show the angel holding an orb in one hand and a staff in the other.
In IC.XC,
Ramon
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