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Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 12:22:51 GMT -5
Yes i do believe the restrainer could be Micheal but not because he is more than an Arc angel but because he is under orders from God to restrain the evil one until God says it is time to allow him to be revealed. Scriptural support? Or personal interpretation? I believe that any being could do anything when empowered by God Himself...but The Bible doesn't state this (what you say "could" be possible). By the standards of "could", anything is possible and if allowed, believable. Personally, I only see The Holy Bible (as shown by the scriptures I posted) stating that something is doing the restraining, not some"one". It literally says "what" is doing the restraining, not "who". |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 12:24:05 GMT -5
By the way, you do what Jehovah's Witnesses do...you give Michael (without scriptural support) a title not given to him scripturally (at least, you say it's possible).  |
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Post by watchman on Jun 5, 2009 12:39:13 GMT -5
Yes i do believe the restrainer could be Micheal but not because he is more than an Arc angel but because he is under orders from God to restrain the evil one until God says it is time to allow him to be revealed. Scriptural support? Or personal interpretation? I believe that any being could do anything when empowered by God Himself...but The Bible doesn't state this (what you say "could" be possible). By the standards of "could", anything is possible and if allowed, believable. Personally, I only see The Holy Bible (as shown by the scriptures I posted) stating that something is doing the restraining, not some"one". It literally says "what" is doing the restraining, not "who". So you think some thing is restraining the evil....lol...that is why ''it'' is called a HE, because it something and not someone. You are clueless. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 5, 2009 12:42:09 GMT -5
By the way, you do what Jehovah's Witnesses do...you give Michael (without scriptural support) a title not given to him scripturally (at least, you say it's possible). I have given Michael no title at all, I do not know what you are talking about. All I have said is that Michael is more likely the restrainer than the Holy Spirit which really cannot be argued because the restrainer cannot be the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is not going to be removed before the Tribulation. So even if the restrainer is not Michael the Arc angel he is still a better option than the Holy Spirit which is all I have ever stated. By the way if you ''did'' go by what your church teaches you would agree with what I have said. Are you a cafiteria catholic you agree with the church as long as it does not agree with me  |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 5, 2009 12:57:36 GMT -5
You take even the vision with the woman in the sky and the dragon literally? There is no reason to not take Revelation literally. As far as the Woman in the sky and the dragon, I believe that John literally had that vision. ;D Yeah, Ok, he did literally have that vision. Is that what you mean Emily? But why take Rev. literally but not the Lord's Supper. You are free to believe what you want, but it doesn't seem very consistent to me. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 13:03:35 GMT -5
So you think some thing is restraining the evil....lol...that is why ''it'' is called a HE, because it something and not someone. You are clueless. Clueless for repeating exactly what The Bible states? Let's review the scripture, but before I do, I want to make sure that you approve of this copy & pasted version: 2 Thessalonians 2:5-7 "Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work;
only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way."Do you approve of this "translation" of scripture "as written"? Yes or no?  |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 13:08:37 GMT -5
I have given Michael no title at all, I do not know what you are talking about. Well, perhaps you should "read" what you yourself quoted me saying. I said that you said it was "possible".  Where does The Church teach what you believe? I agree with everything The Church teaches. If you happen to be "right" sometimes, how can I disagree with that? But, that's why I posted the scripture in question...let's review it together, shall we? ;D |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 13:10:05 GMT -5
But why take Rev. literally but not the Lord's Supper. You are free to believe what you want, but it doesn't seem very consistent to me.   |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 5, 2009 13:15:50 GMT -5
I have a question for you all.
What are you talking about? Why would anyone say that Holy Spirit is going to be "taken out of the way"
Whatever people.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 13:24:23 GMT -5
I have a question for you all. What are you talking about? Why would anyone say that Holy Spirit is going to be "taken out of the way" Whatever people. LOL! I've never heard about this "The Restrainer" theory! I'm learning! The Bible says that it's either Jesus or The Holy Spirit or God The Father (by the use of the capitol letter in His name). Watchman says that it's Michael The Archangel (literally deifying him like the Jehovah's Witness Cult does). I'm still waiting for an answer for him on this one (as on a host of other questions! LOL! ). |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 5, 2009 13:42:54 GMT -5
6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. NIV
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: KJV
6And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; NASB
2 Thess.
Where is a captial "H"? What version did you look up Cepha?
I have heard the "Left behind" rapture people say that this says the Holy Spirit is taken away(from the earth) when the Church is raptured.
The only problem they have with that theory is that there would be no Church left and no Holy Spirit to give people that second chance that they think happens, and so they are dependent on videos and web sites charging 40$ a month in place of the Church or the Holy Spirit. Either that or they have to deify the Bible and say that if some left behind person picks up a Bible, then they will magically understand it without even the Holy Spirit. I'm honestly not sure why they give the "left behind" people a second chance in their theory. It gets me too confused to try to figure it out.
Tangled web.
No wonder so many denominations have started over arguing about this stuff.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 13:48:53 GMT -5
6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. NIV 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: KJV 6And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; NASB 2 Thess. Where is a captial "H"? What version did you look up Cepha? Tangled web. No wonder so many denominations have started over arguing about this stuff. It's in the NKJV bible. Notice what the verse says? It says that a " what" is doing the holding back...not a " who". Right? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. See that? They are trying to say that the "he" is doing the holding back, but the scripture says that it's a "what" that is doing the holding back. The "what" is doing the holding back so " that" he might be revealed in time. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 5, 2009 13:51:33 GMT -5
I have a question for you all. What are you talking about? Why would anyone say that Holy Spirit is going to be "taken out of the way" Whatever people. LOL! I've never heard about this "The Restrainer" theory! I'm learning! The Bible says that it's either Jesus or The Holy Spirit or God The Father (by the use of the capitol letter in His name). Watchman says that it's Michael The Archangel (literally deifying him like the Jehovah's Witness Cult does). I'm still waiting for an answer for him on this one (as on a host of other questions! LOL! ). The Bible does not say it is the Holy Spirit God the Father or Jesus it doesn't say who it is at all, certain translation capitalize the He because that is their opinion but the original text do not indicate that the restrainer is God. Matter of fact this is NOT the teaching of the Catholic church so as a Catholic you have no need to believe that it is. Further more the restrainer is going to be remove before the tribulation and Jesus tells us that He would never leave us nor forsake us. So the restraine5r CANNOT be God. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 5, 2009 13:52:55 GMT -5
So you think some thing is restraining the evil....lol...that is why ''it'' is called a HE, because it something and not someone. You are clueless. Clueless for repeating exactly what The Bible states? Let's review the scripture, but before I do, I want to make sure that you approve of this copy & pasted version: 2 Thessalonians 2:5-7 "Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work;
only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way."Do you approve of this "translation" of scripture "as written"? Yes or no? a ''thing'' cannot be a he or she. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 13:55:02 GMT -5
Clueless for repeating exactly what The Bible states? Let's review the scripture, but before I do, I want to make sure that you approve of this copy & pasted version: 2 Thessalonians 2:5-7 "Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work;
only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way."Do you approve of this "translation" of scripture "as written"? Yes or no? a ''thing'' cannot be a he or she. I guess that would actually be relevant "if" it was the "what" that was the "he" in that verse. What that verse is saying is that the "what" is doing the restraining so that the "he" can be revealed. It's not saying that the "he" is doing the restraining. The "he" being revealed will be the result of the "what's" actions. And...a cat is not a human being, but it can be a "he" or a "she". The scripture says a "He" restrains, but first I want to know if you agree with this translation before we tackle this. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 13:55:30 GMT -5
Clueless for repeating exactly what The Bible states? Let's review the scripture, but before I do, I want to make sure that you approve of this copy & pasted version: 2 Thessalonians 2:5-7 "Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work;
only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way."Do you approve of this "translation" of scripture "as written"? Yes or no? a ''thing'' cannot be a he or she. OH! Do you approve of that translation? Yes? Or no? ;D |
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Post by watchman on Jun 5, 2009 13:56:26 GMT -5
Where does The Church teach what you believe? Check out Ramon's post on page 3 reply #59 it might clear somethings up for you. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 5, 2009 13:58:24 GMT -5
I have a question for you all. What are you talking about? Why would anyone say that Holy Spirit is going to be "taken out of the way" Whatever people. Pretribbers teach this and cepha seems to agree with them, however my guess is he just wants to disagree with me regardless of the issue or what is right or wrong. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 5, 2009 14:01:48 GMT -5
;D
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Post by watchman on Jun 5, 2009 14:05:39 GMT -5
a ''thing'' cannot be a he or she. I guess that would actually be relevant "if" it was the "what" that was the "he" in that verse. What that verse is saying is that the "what" is doing the restraining so that the "he" can be revealed. It's not saying that the "he" is doing the restraining. The "he" being revealed will be the result of the "what's" actions. And...a cat is not a human being, but it can be a "he" or a "she". The scripture says a "He" restrains, but first I want to know if you agree with this translation before we tackle this. No I do not agree with the translation the HE cannot be God because God is not going to be removed. you really need to read the text with the idea of understanding it, rather than jusdt trying to argue with me on a subject that you really should agree with me on. Your Church agrees with me on this subject. What is my view? #1 No one really knows who the restrainer is. #2 one valid opinion is Michael the Arc Angel. #3 It cannot be God because God is never going to be removed. |
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