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Post by emily445455 on Jun 5, 2009 14:31:50 GMT -5
Yeah, Ok, he did literally have that vision. Is that what you mean Emily? But why take Rev. literally but not the Lord's Supper. You are free to believe what you want, but it doesn't seem very consistent to me. He had a vision of things that will happen in the future. The Bible tells us that Jesus is talking about spiritual things when they are spiritual...if He doesn't say that then I take them literally. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 14:46:54 GMT -5
Where does The Church teach what you believe?  Check out Ramon's post on page 3 reply #59 it might clear somethings up for you. I asked "you" to show me what The Catholic Church teaches on the subject. Where is "your" evidence? (And I'm talking about a "doctrinal" teaching here which means it must be found "in" The Catechism of The Catholic Church) |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 14:47:37 GMT -5
I have a question for you all. What are you talking about? Why would anyone say that Holy Spirit is going to be "taken out of the way" Whatever people. Pretribbers teach this and cepha seems to agree with them, however my guess is he just wants to disagree with me regardless of the issue or what is right or wrong. I seem to believe "what"? What are you talking about? |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 14:51:36 GMT -5
I guess that would actually be relevant "if" it was the "what" that was the "he" in that verse. What that verse is saying is that the "what" is doing the restraining so that the "he" can be revealed. It's not saying that the "he" is doing the restraining. The "he" being revealed will be the result of the "what's" actions. And...a cat is not a human being, but it can be a "he" or a "she". The scripture says a "He" restrains, but first I want to know if you agree with this translation before we tackle this.  No I do not agree with the translation So, you disapprove of The New King James Translation of this verse then? I do. The Bible says that something is "restraining", but not that it is a "person". In fact, no where in scripture does the term "restrainer" exist. You made that up! ;D Opinion? Ohhh! So it's not a "doctrine". Fine...where's the scriptural evidence to support this theory that you call "valid"? Removed from "what"? What is that supposed to mean? |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 14:59:17 GMT -5
Yeah, Ok, he did literally have that vision. Is that what you mean Emily? But why take Rev. literally but not the Lord's Supper. You are free to believe what you want, but it doesn't seem very consistent to me. He had a vision of things that will happen in the future. Do you limit Revelation only to that? Most of what he was talking about was actually happening at the time that he wrote it. It was a letter written in code so that if the Romans got a hold of it, they couldn't decipher what it meant. Nero is The Beast (666 literally translates to the letters "nero"). He (and this is a historical fact) literally tried to commit suicide and wounded his own head (just like John says in Rev). The Whore of Babylon is Israel. Israel was "in bead" with Rome to persecute and to murder Jesus Christ. It "whored" itself out to Rome killing it's own Messiah. Rome is Babylon (with whom Israel was in bed with in order to carry out it's plan to kill Jesus). But Jesus never said "this is spiritual" or "that is spiritual". |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 5, 2009 15:12:02 GMT -5
Wow Steven...you're all mixed up.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 5, 2009 15:19:46 GMT -5
Wow Steven...you're all mixed up. How is that? Is anything that I wrote a lie? It's all true. Nero=666 (which lines up with Jewish numerology) Nero cut his own head. (which is a historical fact and it is a biblical fact that the beast did the same thing) Israel schemed and planned to kill Jesus (and succeeded). And Israel did this in cahoots with The Roman Empire (aka Babylon in code). What's "not" true there? |
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Post by watchman on Jun 5, 2009 16:14:19 GMT -5
In fact, no where in scripture does the term "restrainer" exist. You made that up! ;D I didn't make it up lol...I really do not know who first used the term but it is the term used for the who or what that is restraining the anti christ. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 5, 2009 16:15:31 GMT -5
Check out Ramon's post on page 3 reply #59 it might clear somethings up for you. I asked "you" to show me what The Catholic Church teaches on the subject. Where is "your" evidence? (And I'm talking about a "doctrinal" teaching here which means it must be found "in" The Catechism of The Catholic Church) Your the Catholic, you tell me what the Catechism says on the subject. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 5, 2009 16:17:37 GMT -5
Fine...where's the scriptural evidence to support this theory that you call "valid"? I have no theory on the subject execpt it is not the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is not going to be removed. As far as the Theory of Michael being the restrainer the Catholic church calls that theory valid. Reply #59 check it out. |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 5, 2009 16:35:37 GMT -5
Nero couldn't have been the antichrist since the trib hasn't happened yet. We all killed Christ. The Jews physically killed Him, but we all killed Him.
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 5, 2009 17:00:52 GMT -5
Everything in the Bible is spiritual! You are creating a false dichotomy. "Spiritual" and "literal" are not mutually exclusive.
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Post by alfie on Jun 5, 2009 18:46:14 GMT -5
Fine...where's the scriptural evidence to support this theory that you call "valid"? I have no theory on the subject execpt it is not the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is not going to be removed. As far as the Theory of Michael being the restrainer the Catholic church calls that theory valid. Reply #59 check it out. Then how do you explain how there would be a spiritual dillusion upon the entire earth? |
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Post by watchman on Jun 5, 2009 18:53:19 GMT -5
That makes you the only one in all of Christian history to figure it out. WOW, you really think highly of yourself huh? |
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Post by watchman on Jun 5, 2009 18:55:06 GMT -5
I have no theory on the subject execpt it is not the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is not going to be removed. As far as the Theory of Michael being the restrainer the Catholic church calls that theory valid. Reply #59 check it out. Then how do you explain how there would be a spiritual dillusion upon the entire earth? God sending a delusion on those that do not believe has no effect one way or the other on who or what the restrainer may or may not be. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 5, 2009 19:07:59 GMT -5
I have a question for you all. What are you talking about? Why would anyone say that Holy Spirit is going to be "taken out of the way" Whatever people. Pretribbers teach this and cepha seems to agree with them, however my guess is he just wants to disagree with me regardless of the issue or what is right or wrong. I seem to believe "what"? What are you talking about? That the Holy Spirit is the restrainer and is going to be removed from the earth before the Tribulation along with the Church. This is what you believe right cepha? If not then why are you arguing the case for them against me? |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 5, 2009 19:26:20 GMT -5
Heather, yes everything has a spiritual application...but some things are to be taken spiritually only.
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Post by alfie on Jun 5, 2009 20:15:07 GMT -5
Amen to that. Whenever the word he or him is capitolized (besides it coming in at the beginning of a sentence), it means either God, Jesus and/or The Holy Spirit. Many have speculated as to the identity of the restrainer, naming the restraining force as 1) human government; 2) gospel preaching; 3) the binding of Satan; 4) the providence of God; 5) the Jewish state; 6) the church; 7) the Holy Spirit; and 8) Michael. Whatever, or who ever the restrainer is the bible does not state. However we know that the Holy Spirit is not removed before the Tribulation as pretribbers claim, because the 144,000 Jews are saved as sealed during the Tribulation which could not happen if the Holy Spirit is not here on earth to draw them to salvation. So although many people may have their own opinion that is all it is, an opinion. There may be some opinions better than other, and seeing as the Holy Spirit can be excluded because of the salvation of the Jews during the Tribulation Micheal is a better opinion than the Holy Spirit. cepha, you will not find one scripture to support the teaching that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer (we both know that or should at least). So since scripture cannot confirm it, and you being Catholic, I ask you to show me where the catholics teach the restrainer is the Holy Spirit or where any of the ECFs did. The 144,000 is more evidence that the Holy Spirit is withdrawn from the earth. The 144,000 are sealed (preserved) which indicates they are super naturally protected and indwelt with the Spirit. No other believers are mentioned. And notice the 144,000 are Jewish not Gentile (the Gentile church has been raptured) because they are to lead the Jews to the Lord. Again, the wrath of God is reserved for the Jews and the evil people in the world not Christians. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 5, 2009 20:22:46 GMT -5
Many have speculated as to the identity of the restrainer, naming the restraining force as 1) human government; 2) gospel preaching; 3) the binding of Satan; 4) the providence of God; 5) the Jewish state; 6) the church; 7) the Holy Spirit; and 8) Michael. Whatever, or who ever the restrainer is the bible does not state. However we know that the Holy Spirit is not removed before the Tribulation as pretribbers claim, because the 144,000 Jews are saved as sealed during the Tribulation which could not happen if the Holy Spirit is not here on earth to draw them to salvation. So although many people may have their own opinion that is all it is, an opinion. There may be some opinions better than other, and seeing as the Holy Spirit can be excluded because of the salvation of the Jews during the Tribulation Micheal is a better opinion than the Holy Spirit. cepha, you will not find one scripture to support the teaching that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer (we both know that or should at least). So since scripture cannot confirm it, and you being Catholic, I ask you to show me where the catholics teach the restrainer is the Holy Spirit or where any of the ECFs did. The 144,000 is more evidence that the Holy Spirit is withdrawn from the earth. The 144,000 are sealed (preserved) which indicates they are super naturally protected and indwelt with the Spirit. No other believers are mentioned. And notice the 144,000 are Jewish not Gentile (the Gentile church has been raptured) because they are to lead the Jews to the Lord. Again, the wrath of God is reserved for the Jews and the evil people in the world not Christians. So if the 144,000 are supernaturally protected and there are no Gentile believers then who are these saints? Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.Who are the saints that are being overcome by the anti christ? They are not the 144,000 and according to you there are not Gentile believers during the Tribulation. So who are they? |
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Post by watchman on Jun 5, 2009 20:24:17 GMT -5
The wrath of God is reserved for the Jews and the evil people in the world not Christians. #1 The wrath of God is reserved for unbelievers. #2 The wrath of God is poured out at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ. (The Tribulation is NOT the wrath) |
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