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Post by alfie on Jun 5, 2009 20:38:26 GMT -5
The 144,000 is more evidence that the Holy Spirit is withdrawn from the earth. The 144,000 are sealed (preserved) which indicates they are super naturally protected and indwelt with the Spirit. No other believers are mentioned. And notice the 144,000 are Jewish not Gentile (the Gentile church has been raptured) because they are to lead the Jews to the Lord. Again, the wrath of God is reserved for the Jews and the evil people in the world not Christians. So if the 144,000 are supernaturally protected and there are no Gentile believers then who are these saints? Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.Who are the saints that are being overcome by the anti christ? They are not the 144,000 and according to you there are not Gentile believers during the Tribulation. So who are they? The woman is Israel and the saints are those Jews converted by the 144,000. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 5, 2009 20:44:26 GMT -5
So if the 144,000 are supernaturally protected and there are no Gentile believers then who are these saints? Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. Who are the saints that are being overcome by the anti christ? They are not the 144,000 and according to you there are not Gentile believers during the Tribulation. So who are they? The woman is Israel and the saints are those Jews converted by the 144,000. The Bible says that no one can come to Him unless He draws them how is this possible if God has been removed from the earth? Also where does it say anywhere in scripture that the 144,000 Jewish believers convert anyone Jew or Gentile. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 6, 2009 8:44:35 GMT -5
I didn't make it up lol...I really do not know who first used the term but it is the term used for the who or what that is restraining the anti christ. Ok, show me where it is "in" The Bible.  www.algonet.se/~allan-sv/MESSAGE.HTM#AntichristAll I had to do was just Google the term and already I found reasonable alternative explanaitions to what you believe it is...for example, some say The Restrainer is literally The Law which makes all the sense in the world since it (that which does the "restrraining") is referred to as a "what", not a "who". |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 6, 2009 8:50:29 GMT -5
I asked "you" to show me what The Catholic Church teaches on the subject. Where is "your" evidence? (And I'm talking about a "doctrinal" teaching here which means it must be found "in" The Catechism of The Catholic Church) Your the Catholic, you tell me what the Catechism says on the subject. I'm not the one who stated what The Catholic teaching on it was. You were. You said that the Catholic Church teaches what The Restrainer supposedly is. Yet, when asked for evidence using Catholic Doctrine, you ask "me" to prove it or not? Why don't you just post the Doctrine that proves what you are stating (it has to be in The Catechism)? If you said it, you must have some Dontrinal evidence (or is this like when you stated that "the truth" was that The Pope spoke out against Notre Dame over Obama and that turned out to be a lie too?). Ahhh...who am I tying to kid here. No evidence of your false allegation against The Catholic Church exists! Everybody knows that! That's why you're stalling or trying to put the onus on me when you were the one who made the statement! LOL! |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 6, 2009 8:53:24 GMT -5
Fine...where's the scriptural evidence to support this theory that you call "valid"? I have no theory on the subject execpt it is not the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is not going to be removed. As far as the Theory of Michael being the restrainer the Catholic church calls that theory valid. So why da' heck did you call it "valid" then?  And, SHOW ME WHERE IT IS DOCTRINALLY TAUGHT THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH CALLS IT VALID! LOL! You are soooooo ownnnnnned! LOL! |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 6, 2009 8:55:38 GMT -5
Nero couldn't have been the antichrist since the trib hasn't happened yet. We all killed Christ. The Jews physically killed Him, but we all killed Him. But Nero's name is literally 666. He literally wounded his own head. He literally persecuted The Church. He literally lived during the time that John wrote Revelations. He literally was Anti-Christian. All these "literallies" and he's "not" The Beast? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast By the way, wouldn't a "tribulation" be what was happening to the Early Church where Satan was hunting them down and murdering The Leaders of The Church one by one and they were trying to exterminate Christianity? You don know that The Apostles literally believed that Jesus was coming back soon right? Not in thousands of years. That's why The Apostles didn't create The Holy Bible. They thought Jesus was coming right back. When they all died, The Church said, "hey! we better put all their writings together to pass them on to future generations of Christianity!" |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 6, 2009 9:08:06 GMT -5
Nero couldn't have been the antichrist since the trib hasn't happened yet. We all killed Christ. The Jews physically killed Him, but we all killed Him. Oh, and I don't think he's considered The Anti-Christ, but The Beast.  |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 6, 2009 9:37:09 GMT -5
The Beast, like the Anti-Christ, come during the Tribulation, which hasn't started yet.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 6, 2009 10:35:14 GMT -5
The Beast, like the Anti-Christ, come during the Tribulation, which hasn't started yet. But, scripture is proven by history. How do you know that the tribulation didn't happen back then? |
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Post by watchman on Jun 6, 2009 11:21:59 GMT -5
I didn't make it up lol...I really do not know who first used the term but it is the term used for the who or what that is restraining the anti christ. Ok, show me where it is "in" The Bible. www.algonet.se/~allan-sv/MESSAGE.HTM#AntichristAll I had to do was just Google the term and already I found reasonable alternative explanaitions to what you believe it is...for example, some say The Restrainer is literally The Law which makes all the sense in the world since it (that which does the "restrraining") is referred to as a "what", not a "who". That is fine by me, all I have said is that it is not the Holy Spirit, and that Michael the Arc angel is one of many other opinion. You want to believe it is the law, I don't care. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 6, 2009 11:23:20 GMT -5
I have no theory on the subject execpt it is not the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is not going to be removed. As far as the Theory of Michael being the restrainer the Catholic church calls that theory valid. So why da' heck did you call it "valid" then? And, SHOW ME WHERE IT IS DOCTRINALLY TAUGHT THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH CALLS IT VALID! LOL! You are soooooo ownnnnnned! LOL! Check out reply #59 until you do that i guess you will stay in the dark. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 6, 2009 11:24:53 GMT -5
The Beast, like the Anti-Christ, come during the Tribulation, which hasn't started yet. But, scripture is proven by history. How do you know that the tribulation didn't happen back then? Because Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation and Jesus hasn't returned yet. Come on cepha you not really as dumb as you act are you? |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 6, 2009 11:33:45 GMT -5
That is fine by me, all I have said is that it is not the Holy Spirit, and that Michael the Arc angel is one of many other opinion. You want to believe it is the law, I don't care. My question is, if scripture calls it a "what", how do you call it a "who" (whether it be Michael, or whoever)? |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 6, 2009 11:34:49 GMT -5
So why da' heck did you call it "valid" then? And, SHOW ME WHERE IT IS DOCTRINALLY TAUGHT THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH CALLS IT VALID! LOL! You are soooooo ownnnnnned! LOL! Check out reply #59 until you do that i guess you will stay in the dark. There is no "doctrinal" teaching in #59. Now, show me (since you said that The Catholic Church teaches this) where the "doctrinal" (in The Catechism) teaching is? ;D |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 6, 2009 11:36:03 GMT -5
But, scripture is proven by history. How do you know that the tribulation didn't happen back then? Because Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation and Jesus hasn't returned yet. Come on cepha you not really as dumb as you act are you? How do you know "this" isn't the tribulation we're going through right now? War, abortion, "legal" homosexual unions, the poor being allowed to starve while the rich and sinful prosper, etc... [PS When it comes to scripture, I don't pretend to be "smart", I'm an ignoramous] |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 6, 2009 11:58:20 GMT -5
Steven, the world is bad now, but it will be ten times worse during the Trib...those who are still here will know. Plus I'm still here.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 6, 2009 12:07:27 GMT -5
Steven, the world is bad now, but it will be ten times worse during the Trib...those who are still here will know. Plus I'm still here. Em, Just when I can't imagine this world getting any worse (especially America), it never ceases to amaze me. I cannot believe that they want to teach homosexuality to children BEFORE they even know about sex. That really angers me. And...scares me. |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 6, 2009 12:08:36 GMT -5
Oh it will get worse.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 6, 2009 12:10:31 GMT -5
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 6, 2009 12:28:19 GMT -5
I'm not really opposed to telling children about homosexuality. I know I will if they ask.
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