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Post by Ramon on Jun 24, 2009 23:34:04 GMT -5
I think it had something to do with pastors wearing robes or something. not sure If so, you just proven my point! LOL! But what I always wonder about is why do all these Church splits happen in America? Why are there so many new denominations created here? It's kind of weird. Why isn't the same thing happening in other countries? No, there have been splits in other countries. It is not a American issue. Perhaps here we experience it more, but it certainty has occur else where. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by alfie on Jun 25, 2009 1:12:13 GMT -5
Alfie, I don't understand "Christian Methodists and non-Christian Methodists". Me either! I am assuming "Christian Methodists" are just the group of Methodist who believes the other Methodists are wrong, and thus "Non-Christian Methodist". The other "Non-Christian Methodist" perhaps believe they are Christians and the other Methodist group is not. I don't know, in all honesty. In IC.XC, Ramon Look! Don't try to tell me that every person who belongs to the Orthodox church is a Christian. The same thing with Methodists. The majority of Methodists aren't Christians and they believe in a social gospel. By that I mean they think you only have to be a good person to make it to heaven but that is not what Jesus taught. When protestant churches split sometimes it is over trivial matters and sometimes its because the church is undergoing purification. The true Christians separate from the non-believers in the church. In the case of my church it is due to purging and is not a trivial matter. The majority of Catholics and Orthodox don't believe in what their churches teach any more than most prods believe in what their churches teach. So why don't you guys form splinter groups? The answer is because your churches are more tolerant of people who don't tow the line as long as they don't make waves and call rhemselves Catholic or Orthodox. That's important to you guys to call yourselves Catholic or orthodox. That's not important to a protestant because we realize that churches are only man-made institutions and that being a christian is when you have a relationship with Jesus. Also prods aren't a bunch of zombies mindlessly following their leaders. I don't like the fact that my church may splinter but it isn't the end of the world if we do split. It's just a matter of separating the wheat from the tares. And because of that we will end up with more wheat. It is obvious that Catholic and Orthodox believers don't care much about their spiritual condition because they are so complacent. |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 25, 2009 9:09:32 GMT -5
Alfie, perhaps before spliting, your pastors could preach the gospel every Sunday...? Not the "happy, fun, yay! Gospel" The " you are a sinner going to hell because you have broken God's laws, but there is hope for you in Jesus Christ" so on and so forth. Make it offensive...because the Gospel is pretty offensive. Then that way, most people who are just there to socialize will just leave. Or have a message on luke-warm Christians. Or have a message series on both topics! They might be able to stand it for a Sunday or two, but if the pastor preaches this true message Sunday after Sunday for 6 months, they may not be able to stand it. And if that doesn't work....I guess leaving the church would be okay. IMO, and I think the Bible teaches this as well...you should try to work things out within your church before you leave. I wish I would have known that before I left my Methodist church...perhaps it would be a better church now....who knows.  |
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Post by alfie on Jun 25, 2009 11:46:01 GMT -5
Alfie, perhaps before spliting, your pastors could preach the gospel every Sunday...? Not the "happy, fun, yay! Gospel" The " you are a sinner going to hell because you have broken God's laws, but there is hope for you in Jesus Christ" so on and so forth. Make it offensive...because the Gospel is pretty offensive. Then that way, most people who are just there to socialize will just leave. Or have a message on luke-warm Christians. Or have a message series on both topics! They might be able to stand it for a Sunday or two, but if the pastor preaches this true message Sunday after Sunday for 6 months, they may not be able to stand it. And if that doesn't work....I guess leaving the church would be okay. IMO, and I think the Bible teaches this as well...you should try to work things out within your church before you leave. I wish I would have known that before I left my Methodist church...perhaps it would be a better church now....who knows. Some of the members from my church (including my pastor) attended a conference at Lakeside Ohio along with representives from other United Methodist churches. It's our annual conference. The problem is that the higher ups in the church have become very liberal while the majority of our laity is conservative. That's the problem. |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 25, 2009 12:07:52 GMT -5
Alfie, I see. If I were you then, I would leave. You could try talking to the pastors and whoever else is a "higher up"....but I'm not sure if it would change anything. GL!!
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Post by alfie on Jun 25, 2009 12:18:11 GMT -5
That sounds kinda like what happened in michigan. There was the reformed church (Dutch) but smething happened because some of the split away into the Christian reformed church. I've heard that only insiders can tell what the differences are. Some splits within Christian churches occur over silly situations and not necessary doctrinal differences. In IC.XC, Ramon Are you going to claim that all Orthodox people have the same beliefs? It's not true and you know it. Since the Eucharist is the centerpiece of your church and as long as you allow all of your laity to take communion and participate in the Mass they are more than willing to stay united in one body even if they don't believe in all of the teachings of your church. This is why you have pro-abortion politicians who are allowed to take communion. Unity is more important to Catholics than ex-communicating people for non-Catholic beliefs. In my church if non Christian Methodists don't accept what Jesus taught about salvation but believe in a social gospel rather than the truth they are called down for their false beliefs by the Christian Methodists in the church. A social gospel is unacceptable to Christian Methodists and when we end up spliting into separate churches it is kind of our way of ex-communicating non-Christian Methodists. It's always the conservative Christian Methodists who split from the church when it becomes liberal not the other way around. |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 25, 2009 21:20:13 GMT -5
Emily, I thought you believed that the "church" is just an invisible collection of all believers in the world. I'm kind of confused about how you really view "church".
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Post by mrstain on Jun 25, 2009 21:25:16 GMT -5
Some of the members from my church (including my pastor) attended a conference at Lakeside Ohio along with representives from other United Methodist churches. It's our annual conference. The problem is that the higher ups in the church have become very liberal while the majority of our laity is conservative. That's the problem. That's been my experience with the few Methodists I've met & know. They themselves are traditional and they regret that the leadership has gone the route of many main-line American churches -- the liberal direction. The conservative ones would make great Catholics. |
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Post by Ramon on Jun 25, 2009 23:37:20 GMT -5
Look! Don't try to tell me that every person who belongs to the Orthodox church is a Christian. The same thing with Methodists. The majority of Methodists aren't Christians and they believe in a social gospel. By that I mean they think you only have to be a good person to make it to heaven but that is not what Jesus taught. First, I did not know what you meant. Second, I agree that not every person is a true Christian. Not every Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant are true Christians. Not everyone is save. I never claim otherwise Alfie. The majority of Catholics and Orthodox don't believe in what their churches teach any more than most prods believe in what their churches teach. What? Who told you that? I agree that there are many within Orthodoxy that may not not follow every teaching of the Holy Eastern Orthodox Church, however, how do you know its a majority? Do you have any reliable source? In essence, Alfie, anyone who calls themselves "Orthodox" or "Eastern Orthodox Christian", but does not follow in every detail of the Holy Orthodox Church, are not Eastern Orthodox Christians. Plain and simple. It's like if one call him or herself "Lutheran" but reject the doctrine of Salvation of Faith alone. He or she is only Lutheran by name. So why don't you guys form splinter groups? The answer is because your churches are more tolerant of people who don't tow the line as long as they don't make waves and call rhemselves Catholic or Orthodox. That's important to you guys to call yourselves Catholic or orthodox. Who told this devil lie? Why will we want to cause splinters? Sweetheart, Christ' Church will not be separated. Many will become Schematics, but the Apostolic Church will remain one. The gates of Hades will never prevail (Matthew 16:18). Only those who do not want to follow in the footsteps of the Holy Apostolic Church will cause splinters. WE HAVE DEFENDED AGAINST HERETICS! WE defended against the Gnostic, Arians, Nestorians, and all sorts of other heresies! In matter of fact, we told you whats should be in your Bibles! Sweetheart, we are not tolerant of heretics. We give them chances to reunite to the Orthodox Church. If all other efforts fail, we excommunicate them! So yes, Alfie, we do care about our spiritual condition and whats being taught within Orthodoxy. That is why the Holy Orthodox Church teach her children the teachings of the Holy Apostles, and the God-Bearings Fathers/Saints/Mothers. She teach the Apostolic Faith in its fullness. Not added or subtracted from it. Protestantism came into existences in the 16th century. The majority of Protestant doctrine can only be traced far back to the 16th century, others doctrines that many Protestants holds are only 200-300 years old. No Protestant Church, thus, can not be the true Apostolic Church. There is a big difference between Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy. Whereas Protestantism is a very diverse group of people, Eastern Orthodoxy is not. The Holy Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church teach One Faith. Go to any Canonical Eastern Orthodox Church and you will see , read and hear the same Faith being taught in another canonical Orthodox Church. Eastern Orthodoxy is not separated by "branches" as Protestantism is. We have a unity of beliefs and practices, while Protestantism holds the "every man for himself" policy. It is obvious that Catholic and Orthodox believers don't care much about their spiritual condition because they are so complacent. Lie! We Orthodox do care about our spiritual condition. In fact, we are reminded on how fallen we humans are and are need of the forgiveness of Jesus Christ in every Divine Liturgy! It is quite clear that you have never visited a Orthodox Church and sat or stood and heard the Divine Liturgy. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by Ramon on Jun 26, 2009 0:00:37 GMT -5
Some splits within Christian churches occur over silly situations and not necessary doctrinal differences. In IC.XC, Ramon Are you going to claim that all Orthodox people have the same beliefs? It's not true and you know it. What I m going to claim is thus: All true Eastern Orthodox Christians who are in union with one of the Canonical Orthodox Churches, ALL share the same beliefs! You know that's true! I tell you want. Go to several canonical Orthodox churches and compare what each teach! I guarantee you that you will not find contradictions! orthodoxyinamerica.org/Since the Eucharist is the centerpiece of your church and as long as you allow all of your laity to take communion and participate in the Mass they are more than willing to stay united in one body even if they don't believe in all of the teachings of your church. This is why you have pro-abortion politicians who are allowed to take communion. Unity is more important to Catholics than ex-communicating people for non-Catholic beliefs. You do realize that I am Orthodox right? So why are you still referring to Catholics when talking to and about me? Sweetheart, a canonical Orthodox Priest or Bishop will never give one the Divine Eucharist unless you believe and proclaim what the Holy Orthodox Church believe and proclaim. That is why Catholics (Latin/Eastern) and Protestants are not allowed to commune in our Churches. They are forbidden, in normal situations, to come forward to the Holy Chalice. Please do not make statements about my Apostolic Church, when you know nothing about the Holy Eastern Orthodox Church and her practices. In my church if non Christian Methodists don't accept what Jesus taught about salvation but believe in a social gospel rather than the truth they are called down for their false beliefs by the Christian Methodists in the church. The same in the Holy Eastern Orthodox Church Alfie. If a Eastern Orthodox Christian is teaching any doctrine or practice contrary to what the Holy Eastern Orthodox Church teach and practice, a Orthodox Priest or Bishop will called you down for your false beliefs. Either you repent of your wrong ways, or receive excommunication (literally a forbidding from receiving Holy Communion). Priests and Bishops in Orthodoxy keep each other in check. So if one Orthodox Priest or Bishop is teaching something contrary to the Apostolic Faith, the other clergy members will certainty call him down. If the situation worsen, a Holy Synod will be come and handle the situation. Alfie, we do practice excommunication! Excommunication can happened for other reasons beside doctrinal issues. If a Orthodox Priest/Bishop/Spiritual Father feels that you should not approach the Holy Chalice for whatever reason, he will excommunicate you for a short time. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 8:04:21 GMT -5
So, you still believe "in" Methodism? After I got Saved and figured out that this church wasn't teaching Jesus and His Word, I left. I probably should have tried to work it out before I just left, but I didn't know I should do that at that time. So you're saying you no longer believe in Methodism, then, right? You used to believe in it, then you "changed" your belief, right? |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 8:13:33 GMT -5
Went to Bible study at my Methodist church today and the pastor informed us that the United Methodist Church may be splitting into different branches due to the differences between Christian Methodists and non-Christian Methodists. So rejoice Cepha! There are two things that make me sad about that post. 1) That you would think that I'd be happy about what's going on in your church. 2) That your church is splitting up. Neither could be farther from the truth.  I'm never happy when brothers fight. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 8:21:09 GMT -5
Methodism, like all other Protestant sects, was started by a man. Much of the Methodist theology comes from the reformer John Wesley. Although many Methodist, such as Alfie, like to boast about the Protestant Reformers, including John Wesley, in reality they reject many of there teachings, those which are "Pro-Catholic/Orthodox". In essence, though, the Methodist Church has not kept the faith of the Holy Apostles and the Ancient Fathers. They have subtracted from the Ancient Faith, just like there founder, John Wesley, did. I have one Methodist Church near my area. Visited once, but it was enough to let me know it wasn't the Apostolic Church. This was the time of my life when I was searching for the Apostolic Church. I only witness Pop-Evangelical theology, but not the Faith of the Ancient Fathers. I have nothing against the Methodist Church, just there misguided views. The History of the Methodist Church is very unique. It is one of very few Protestant Churches that, can in some sense, trace there lineages, back to the Reformers. I have met many nice Methodist people. In IC.XC, Ramon It's a house built upon "sand" (or soil, that which man is made of): Matthew 7: 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. This is why The Catholic Church has never fallen despite all the attacks upon it...because it is built upon Cephas (Peter, The Rock!): Matthew 7:24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. I will never rejoice when Christians bicker amongst themselves and their house (church) falls (denominates), but I rejoice in The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church! Can I get an Amen? ;D |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 8:28:03 GMT -5
Went to Bible study at my Methodist church today and the pastor informed us that the United Methodist Church may be splitting into different branches due to the differences between Christian Methodists and non-Christian Methodists. So rejoice Cepha! LOL! Splits after splits! Since the 16th Century, the Western Churches has been splinting into "sub churches". It's sad really. What will Cepha rejoice? He should be sadden! Rejoice, when Western Protestant Churches are splitting more? That was Satan plan from the get-go! I am not rejoicing, I am rather praying for the Protestant churches. In IC.XC, Ramon See that Alfie? See how universal Christians think? We are about loving each other, not being happy that there are arguments and divisions among Christians (like Paul said). See how Ramon, an Orthodox Christian thinks like me and I, a Universal Christian think like him? You know why this is so? Because our Church (one word) is guided by The Holy Spirit and it would not allow us to be inflitrated with malice towards our Christian bretheren (even those that reject us). That is a true fruit of The Christian Church and of The Christian message of love and compassion for one another. He is 100% right about me. It makes me sad. I can't rejoice in that. And Ramon is 100% right about Satan's plan. He (Satan) started The Reformation attempt (even Martin Luther said that Satan talked to him and plagued him after Calvin and Zwingli, his cohorts, abandoned him!). Luther was prideful when he broke away from The Church, but was later sorrowful for his acts and reached out to The Pope in a letter expressing his regret for what happened because of his works. You would be wrong if you think that division is of a Chrsitian nature. It's not. We are not to cast our brethren out of the fold because they are misguided or misindoctrinated. It is our Christian duty to speak the truth. If they reject it, so be it. So long as they don't speak "against" Christ, we can never reject them. That is what Jesus literally told John. That first quote I put on my forum's title page is the passage of Christ expressing His wishes to The Father that we may all be one and love each other as He and The Father love each other. I also feel sad for you...that you would think that I would be happy at your suffering. This shows that you don't know what Christianity is about. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 8:28:39 GMT -5
Went to Bible study at my Methodist church today and the pastor informed us that the United Methodist Church may be splitting into different branches due to the differences between Christian Methodists and non-Christian Methodists. So rejoice Cepha! LOL! Splits after splits! Since the 16th Century, the Western Churches has been splinting into "sub churches". It's sad really. What will Cepha rejoice? He should be sadden! Rejoice, when Western Protestant Churches are splitting more? That was Satan plan from the get-go! I am not rejoicing, I am rather praying for the Protestant churches. In IC.XC, Ramon And thank you Ramon for automatically recognizing the truth in me.  |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 8:39:16 GMT -5
Went to Bible study at my Methodist church today and the pastor informed us that the United Methodist Church may be splitting into different branches due to the differences between Christian Methodists and non-Christian Methodists. So rejoice Cepha! Non-Christian Methodism? I bet you those that are considered "non-Christian" Methodists are those that more closely follow their founders (John Wesley) teachings! I bet you 100% that that's what it is! Methodism is being hijacked by Extremists! Now, all of a sudden, their founder is WRONG! And their going to "re-form" their church! I bet you a zillion dollars that's it! Right? Alfie, do you agree with John Wesley's beliefs? Yes or no? |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 26, 2009 8:46:22 GMT -5
Heather, Church with a capital C is the body of believers (and we are not invisible....at least it seems people can see me), and church with a little c are the buildings Believers and nonbelievers worship/not worship.
Steven, I never believed in Methodistism, just like I don't believe in Baptistism. I believe in what the Bible says and if a church doesn't/stops following what it teaches, I will no longer go to that church.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 8:54:15 GMT -5
Alfie, I don't understand "Christian Methodists and non-Christian Methodists". Me either! I am assuming "Christian Methodists" are just the group of Methodist who believes the other Methodists are wrong, and thus "Non-Christian Methodist". The other "Non-Christian Methodist" perhaps believe they are Christians and the other Methodist group is not. I don't know, in all honesty. In IC.XC, Ramon Or, another case of Protestanst "protesting" Protestants.  |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 26, 2009 9:00:09 GMT -5
I think I just protest any church that doesn't teach what the Word says. Any church that's all happy, snappy, Jesus is love (which is true, Amen...but they are missing the other part), be a good person and you'll get to heaven. Gag...makes me sick.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 9:02:33 GMT -5
The only thing I can think of is that some Methodists believe in things that make them more like a cult than a Christian sect...like Mormons or something. I'll bet you it's that some Meths want to be like "true" Meths and the newer Meths don't want to return to their founder's beliefs. I'm going to have to look it up though. But I bet you that's it. This is what happens when there is no Apostolic guidance. This is what The Church fought in the beginning of Christianity...churches believing that they could autonamously guide themselves without having to adhere to origional traditional Christian teachings. This is what leads them towards the path of division. Paul spoke out against this strongly. |
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