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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 9:04:36 GMT -5
That sounds kinda like what happened in michigan. There was the reformed church (Dutch) but smething happened because some of the split away into the Christian reformed church. I've heard that only insiders can tell what the differences are. This cannot happen with Catholicism. Once you're out The Church, that's it. You're a Protestant or a Heretic. A group calling themselves "Traditional Catholics" do this. They are extremists and even have their own pope. I don't know if their Protestants or heretics or what though. But, they certainly are "not" in communion with The Universal Church. That's for sure (no matter what they call themselves). |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 26, 2009 9:05:34 GMT -5
I have a feeling it's what Alfie was talking about....the "social gospel". That happened to the Methodist church I went to as well, was merely a social gathering. If that church did away with their sermon and just socialize for 2 hours, most of the members would be so excited.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 9:11:41 GMT -5
I have a feeling it's what Alfie was talking about....the "social gospel". That happened to the Methodist church I went to as well, was merely a social gathering. If that church did away with their sermon and just socialize for 2 hours, most of the members would be so excited. Wow. Imagine a church that takes away communion, liturgy, sacraments, an altar, a tabernacle, candles, incense, holy water, annointing oil, The Priesthood, books in The Holy Bible, etc...  Do you disagree with a church taking away a sermon? |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 9:13:35 GMT -5
I think it had something to do with pastors wearing robes or something. not sure But what I always wonder about is why do all these Church splits happen in America? Why are there so many new denominations created here? It's kind of weird. Why isn't the same thing happening in other countries? American arrogance. Idividualism taken too far. There are many things that only occur in American churches (even in The Catholic Church itself). Some people put their "Americaness" over their faith (like those Christians who get upset about Government tax dollars going to help the poor and needy). |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 26, 2009 9:21:41 GMT -5
Steven, I guess it wouldn't matter anyways...since all the sermons at the Methodist church I went to were about being a good person and giving $ to the church.
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 26, 2009 9:25:05 GMT -5
I have a feeling it's what Alfie was talking about....the "social gospel". That happened to the Methodist church I went to as well, was merely a social gathering. If that church did away with their sermon and just socialize for 2 hours, most of the members would be so excited. Wow. Imagine a church that takes away communion, liturgy, sacraments, an altar, a tabernacle, candles, incense, holy water, annointing oil, The Priesthood, books in The Holy Bible, etc... Do you disagree with a church taking away a sermon? Where in the Bible does it say what constitutes a "church" gathering? Is a sermon even required? I honestly never understood why the whole focus of Sunday "worship" for protestants was the sermon. I'm not trying to be nasty, I just don't get it. I never got it, even when I was protestant for 13 years. When the music ended and the 45 minute sermon started, my heart would just sink. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 9:37:40 GMT -5
Look! Don't try to tell me that every person who belongs to the Orthodox church is a Christian. Orthodox Christian "is" a Christian. See that? Me and Ramon were right! It's a majority of Extremists who want to break away from their church! Alfie, I bet you don't adhere to your founder's teachings, right? Yet, you keep his religion's name? Oh, and John Wesley taught what you disagree with! "...you only have to be a good person to make it to heaven..." Your founder! How can you even call yourself a Methodist if you don't agree with Methodism? You're going to have to start your own church now. How could a Christian church need to be purified if Jesus said that His Church would never be corrupted? How can a church guided by The Holy Spirit need purification by mankind? That doesn't make sense. If it was a Church of Christ, it would need no purification or division. It would be pure. Perfect. Infallible! And Satan couldn't prevail against it! Wow. Again, I don't see how a "true" (your word, not mine) Christian church would need to be purged. It would mean that Satan successfully infiltrated your church. Here we go...can't control your own house, so now you're going to try to tell us about our own house? LOL! Wrong. We don't splinter because we are led by The Holy Spirit (not by Satan). And God protects us from Heresy. Actually, Catholics are orthodox and Orthodox are catholic. We are the same...two lungs of one body. And yes, it is important that we name ourselves "universal" (Catholic) and "original" (Orthodox). Because it is the truth. We don't name ourselves after "movements" (like Methodism or Protestantism or Baptism) or people (like Luther or Calvin). Our name describes our Church and has been used in Christianity since Christianities inception. Hmmm...so why do you name your religious sects after men and after events if it's not important? Why can't you just call yourself Christians (without denominational affiliation, like universal Christians)? And...Jesus made The Catholic Church...so, it's not "man-made". Now, your church was made by a man...John Wesley! Right? (Here comes the "it doesn't matter who founded our church..." line now! LOL!) No, that already happened in 1535! What you have is the tares separating from the tares, but true wheat doesn't separate from wheat! Aint that right Ramon? Actually, we're not worried about our spiritual connection because we leave our guidance in the hands of God (not man like John Wesley). So, because we are guided by The Holy Spirit, we dont' have to worry about being misled! It's the fruit of The Holy Spirit that we have "peace" and serenity with regards to our faith. We don't have to fight amongst ourselves or splinter off. We're happy where we are. Ever notice how Protestants continue to fall apart while Catholicism remains strong? In your reverse way of thinking, you actually think that unity is a work of Satan (as some kind of proof) and division is the work of God. Right? |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 9:43:13 GMT -5
Alfie, perhaps before spliting, your pastors could preach the gospel every Sunday...? Not the "happy, fun, yay! Gospel" The " you are a sinner going to hell because you have broken God's laws, but there is hope for you in Jesus Christ" so on and so forth. Make it offensive...because the Gospel is pretty offensive. Then that way, most people who are just there to socialize will just leave. Or have a message on luke-warm Christians. Or have a message series on both topics! They might be able to stand it for a Sunday or two, but if the pastor preaches this true message Sunday after Sunday for 6 months, they may not be able to stand it. And if that doesn't work....I guess leaving the church would be okay. IMO, and I think the Bible teaches this as well...you should try to work things out within your church before you leave. I wish I would have known that before I left my Methodist church...perhaps it would be a better church now....who knows.  Or, they can just read this: Divisions in the ChurchNow I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you be in agreement and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same purpose.
For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there are quarrels among you, my brothers and sisters.
What I mean is that each of you says, "I belong to Paul," or "I belong to Apollos," or "I belong to Cephas," or "I belong to Christ."
Has Christ been divided?
Was Paul crucified for you?
Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one can say that you were baptized in my name. (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.)
For Christ did not send me to baptize but to proclaim the gospel, and not with eloquent wisdom, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its power. (1 Corinthians 1:10-17) Then, reflect on what "really" shows what is Jesus' Church! John 13:34A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 9:50:12 GMT -5
Alfie, perhaps before spliting, your pastors could preach the gospel every Sunday...? Not the "happy, fun, yay! Gospel" The " you are a sinner going to hell because you have broken God's laws, but there is hope for you in Jesus Christ" so on and so forth. Make it offensive...because the Gospel is pretty offensive. Then that way, most people who are just there to socialize will just leave. Or have a message on luke-warm Christians. Or have a message series on both topics! They might be able to stand it for a Sunday or two, but if the pastor preaches this true message Sunday after Sunday for 6 months, they may not be able to stand it. And if that doesn't work....I guess leaving the church would be okay. IMO, and I think the Bible teaches this as well...you should try to work things out within your church before you leave. I wish I would have known that before I left my Methodist church...perhaps it would be a better church now....who knows. Some of the members from my church (including my pastor) attended a conference at Lakeside Ohio along with representives from other United Methodist churches. It's our annual conference. The problem is that the higher ups in the church have become very liberal while the majority of our laity is conservative. That's the problem. What does it say about "what's" guiding your leaders? It's obvious that they aren't being guided by The Holy Spirit, right? So, how can you trust that religion if it's not guided by The Holy Spirit? |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 9:51:30 GMT -5
Alfie, I see. If I were you then, I would leave. You could try talking to the pastors and whoever else is a "higher up"....but I'm not sure if it would change anything. GL!! The sheep can't tell the shepherd what to do. If the shepherd is wrong, then he's not a true shepherd. Sheep cannot start their own flocks. They must join a "true" flock. Led by a "true" shepherd appointed by God. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 9:58:41 GMT -5
Some splits within Christian churches occur over silly situations and not necessary doctrinal differences. In IC.XC, Ramon Are you going to claim that all Orthodox people have the same beliefs? Yes. See, the people don't form the doctrine, The Holy Spirit does. Anyone who identifies themselves as Orthodox Christians do so knowing what Orthodoxy is. We just don't pronounce a prayer, get dunked and BOOM! Instant membership. Catholics/Orthodox have to go through a rite of initiation that teaches the doctrines of the faith before they are brought into the faith. It takes months of training and discernment. Wrong, anyone who takes communion without faith discredits their own communion. They take judgement upon themselves. You should read Paul's teaching on The Eucharist in Corinthians. Again, a Priest cannot deny communion to anybody who presents themselves for it. They don't know if this person has reconciled themselves to God. Again, the person is judged by God (not by The Priest). Read Paul's teaching on The Eucharist. You are so far off on this. And, unity is important, but not to the point that we become gods and pass judgement. Only God can judge the person taking communion. The Priest cannot deny that person communion unless the person proclaims something right before taking it that is nullifies his ability to receive The Eucharist. But aren't you split from your church's founder, John Wesley? So what does that say about you? |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 10:09:08 GMT -5
Some splits within Christian churches occur over silly situations and not necessary doctrinal differences. In IC.XC, Ramon Are you going to claim that all Orthodox people have the same beliefs? It's not true and you know it. Since the Eucharist is the centerpiece of your church and as long as you allow all of your laity to take communion and participate in the Mass they are more than willing to stay united in one body even if they don't believe in all of the teachings of your church. This is why you have pro-abortion politicians who are allowed to take communion. Unity is more important to Catholics than ex-communicating people for non-Catholic beliefs. In my church if non Christian Methodists don't accept what Jesus taught about salvation but believe in a social gospel rather than the truth they are called down for their false beliefs by the Christian Methodists in the church. A social gospel is unacceptable to Christian Methodists and when we end up spliting into separate churches it is kind of our way of ex-communicating non-Christian Methodists. It's always the conservative Christian Methodists who split from the church when it becomes liberal not the other way around. Why don't you go to a Church that has a proven track record of being right on doctrine? Why do you attend a church started by a man (John Wesley)? |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 10:19:41 GMT -5
Some of the members from my church (including my pastor) attended a conference at Lakeside Ohio along with representives from other United Methodist churches. It's our annual conference. The problem is that the higher ups in the church have become very liberal while the majority of our laity is conservative. That's the problem. That's been my experience with the few Methodists I've met & know. They themselves are traditional and they regret that the leadership has gone the route of many main-line American churches -- the liberal direction. The conservative ones would make great Catholics. The conservative Meth's call themselves "Catholic-light"! I love them! Alfie is a heretical Meth (she rejects her church's doctrines and founder). |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 10:27:20 GMT -5
Look! Don't try to tell me that every person who belongs to the Orthodox church is a Christian. The same thing with Methodists. The majority of Methodists aren't Christians and they believe in a social gospel. By that I mean they think you only have to be a good person to make it to heaven but that is not what Jesus taught. First, I did not know what you meant. Second, I agree that not every person is a true Christian. Not every Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant are true Christians. Not everyone is save. I never claim otherwise Alfie. What? Who told you that? I agree that there are many within Orthodoxy that may not not follow every teaching of the Holy Eastern Orthodox Church, however, how do you know its a majority? Do you have any reliable source? In essence, Alfie, anyone who calls themselves "Orthodox" or "Eastern Orthodox Christian", but does not follow in every detail of the Holy Orthodox Church, are not Eastern Orthodox Christians. Plain and simple. It's like if one call him or herself "Lutheran" but reject the doctrine of Salvation of Faith alone. He or she is only Lutheran by name. Who told this devil lie? Why will we want to cause splinters? Sweetheart, Christ' Church will not be separated. Many will become Schematics, but the Apostolic Church will remain one. The gates of Hades will never prevail (Matthew 16:18). Only those who do not want to follow in the footsteps of the Holy Apostolic Church will cause splinters. WE HAVE DEFENDED AGAINST HERETICS! WE defended against the Gnostic, Arians, Nestorians, and all sorts of other heresies! In matter of fact, we told you whats should be in your Bibles! Sweetheart, we are not tolerant of heretics. We give them chances to reunite to the Orthodox Church. If all other efforts fail, we excommunicate them! So yes, Alfie, we do care about our spiritual condition and whats being taught within Orthodoxy. That is why the Holy Orthodox Church teach her children the teachings of the Holy Apostles, and the God-Bearings Fathers/Saints/Mothers. She teach the Apostolic Faith in its fullness. Not added or subtracted from it. Protestantism came into existences in the 16th century. The majority of Protestant doctrine can only be traced far back to the 16th century, others doctrines that many Protestants holds are only 200-300 years old. No Protestant Church, thus, can not be the true Apostolic Church. There is a big difference between Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy. Whereas Protestantism is a very diverse group of people, Eastern Orthodoxy is not. The Holy Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church teach One Faith. Go to any Canonical Eastern Orthodox Church and you will see , read and hear the same Faith being taught in another canonical Orthodox Church. Eastern Orthodoxy is not separated by "branches" as Protestantism is. We have a unity of beliefs and practices, while Protestantism holds the "every man for himself" policy. It is obvious that Catholic and Orthodox believers don't care much about their spiritual condition because they are so complacent. Lie! We Orthodox do care about our spiritual condition. In fact, we are reminded on how fallen we humans are and are need of the forgiveness of Jesus Christ in every Divine Liturgy! It is quite clear that you have never visited a Orthodox Church and sat or stood and heard the Divine Liturgy. In IC.XC, Ramon Bingo! For example, how many Protestants died defending Christianity against The Great Heresies? Not one! Only Catholics died defending Christianity against Heresies! How many Protestants contributed to the canonization of The Holy Bible? Not one! Only Catholics contributed to the canonization of The Holy Bible! How many Protestants revealed The Doctrines of The Holy Trinity, Justification & Salvation, The Divinity of Christ? Not one! Only Catholics revealed these truths! The only things Protestants did was copy what we already brought to the world and edit it to fit their modern worldy beliefs! We are orthodox and universal true to Christian tradition! But, this doesn't undo a Protestant's Christianity. They can reject The Church and still be Christians. No one can be wrong in loving Jesus even if they are wrong in doctrine. Amen! |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 10:37:10 GMT -5
I think I just protest any church that doesn't teach what the Word says. Any church that's all happy, snappy, Jesus is love (which is true, Amen...but they are missing the other part), be a good person and you'll get to heaven. Gag...makes me sick. You shouldn't judge period. In fact, you should be busy working out your own salvation (and that is what The Word says).  What did Jesus teach us about others outside of what we believe to be The True Church who also believe in Christ? Luke 949And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 10:38:38 GMT -5
I have a feeling it's what Alfie was talking about....the "social gospel". That happened to the Methodist church I went to as well, was merely a social gathering. If that church did away with their sermon and just socialize for 2 hours, most of the members would be so excited. Alfie doesn't even believe in her founder's teaching so what does that tell you about her loyalty to Methodism? She should quit Methodism and just join the growing sect of Non-Denominationalism that is spreading at all the discomfort with organized religion in the United States. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 10:39:22 GMT -5
Steven, I guess it wouldn't matter anyways...since all the sermons at the Methodist church I went to were about being a good person and giving $ to the church. Well, that's what you can expect out of a non-Apostolically succeeded church Em.  |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 10:40:03 GMT -5
Steven, I guess it wouldn't matter anyways...since all the sermons at the Methodist church I went to were about being a good person and giving $ to the church. By the way, Jesus taught that you HAD to be a good person to get into heaven. That was the heart of The Gospel. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 10:43:14 GMT -5
Wow. Imagine a church that takes away communion, liturgy, sacraments, an altar, a tabernacle, candles, incense, holy water, annointing oil, The Priesthood, books in The Holy Bible, etc... Do you disagree with a church taking away a sermon? Where in the Bible does it say what constitutes a "church" gathering? Is a sermon even required? I honestly never understood why the whole focus of Sunday "worship" for protestants was the sermon. I'm not trying to be nasty, I just don't get it. I never got it, even when I was protestant for 13 years. When the music ended and the 45 minute sermon started, my heart would just sink. Because you weren't "fed" The Body of Christ there! |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 26, 2009 10:46:59 GMT -5
Wow. Imagine a church that takes away communion, liturgy, sacraments, an altar, a tabernacle, candles, incense, holy water, annointing oil, The Priesthood, books in The Holy Bible, etc... Do you disagree with a church taking away a sermon? Where in the Bible does it say what constitutes a "church" gathering? Is a sermon even required? I honestly never understood why the whole focus of Sunday "worship" for protestants was the sermon. I'm not trying to be nasty, I just don't get it. I never got it, even when I was protestant for 13 years. When the music ended and the 45 minute sermon started, my heart would just sink. See, it's like this...Catholics are greedy like our founder, Peter! When Jesus told him that He had to wash his feet, then Peter said, then not just my feet, but all of him! And that's how we are! We aren't Diet Christians! We want to get fat with Christ! We want Him spiritually AND physically! Not just The Spirit, but give us Your Body & Blood Lord to if You say this is how it must be! We want to see Him all the time with our own eyes! We want to receive Him physically since He left us that manner too! Why delete this from your faith? Why delete The Word of God that doesn't jive with your modern 16th Century beliefs? Heavens no! Give us more! More! More Christ! We are just like The Apostles, hungry, ignorant, mistakefull, but always coming back for more! Not getting discouraged and breaking away from His Church when we hear things that are (as scripture would say in John 6:66), too difficult to hear! We don't have to know why! Just tell us and we'll believe Jesus! |
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