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Post by teresahrc on Jun 28, 2009 22:21:35 GMT -5
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16:18
Why did Jesus call Peter a rock?
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Post by alfie on Jun 29, 2009 19:29:10 GMT -5
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18 Why did Jesus call Peter a rock? When Jesus says he will build his church “on this rock,” he means a real rock. An actual, literal rock. But I don't know what type of rock. It could be either sedimentary or metophoric. |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 29, 2009 20:22:22 GMT -5
I'd have to study it out...but in Matt 16:16 Simon Peter tells Christ that he believes He is the Christ, the Son of the living God. It could be that Christ builds His church upon the foundation of Peter's testimony, the testimony that Christ is the Son of God. Those who will later place their faith in Christ, like Peter did....would make up the church Jesus is talking about. 1 Peter 2:5 talks about how we are all little precious stones making up the spiritual house.
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 29, 2009 20:51:30 GMT -5
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18 Why did Jesus call Peter a rock? When Jesus says he will build his church “on this rock,” he means a real rock. An actual, literal rock. But I don't know what type of rock. It could be either sedimentary or metophoric.   So was Peter even there or was the whole conversation just with Jesus and a rock? I have to tell you, I have heard a lot of opinions on that verse, but never have I heard that one.  |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 29, 2009 23:58:06 GMT -5
#1. That was not Peter's testimony. If you read what Jesus said to him, no man revealed that to Peter but God, so it was God's testimony, not Peter's.
#2. It wasn't the testimony that Jesus pointed out, but the fact that God choose him to reveal it.
#3. Jesus didn't call Peter "a rock". Jesus called Simon "a rock". Peter means "rock", but that is just an English derivative of the Greek word for rock. What Jesus literally said was "You are blessed Simon, you are a rock, and upon this rock I will build my church."
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 30, 2009 0:00:58 GMT -5
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18 Why did Jesus call Peter a rock? When Jesus says he will build his church “on this rock,” he means a real rock. An actual, literal rock. But I don't know what type of rock. It could be either sedimentary or metophoric. The question wasn't "Where did Jesus build His church". BUt rather, why Simon was called a rock. So alfie, why did Jesus call Simon a rock? |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 30, 2009 9:04:28 GMT -5
#1. That was not Peter's testimony. If you read what Jesus said to him, no man revealed that to Peter but God, so it was God's testimony, not Peter's. #2. It wasn't the testimony that Jesus pointed out, but the fact that God choose him to reveal it. #3. Jesus didn't call Peter "a rock". Jesus called Simon "a rock". Peter means "rock", but that is just an English derivative of the Greek word for rock. What Jesus literally said was "You are blessed Simon, you are a rock, and upon this rock I will build my church." It's Peter's testimony if he said and believed it. God revealed this truth to him. And in that verse it says "Peter....rock". So I'm confused by what you mean by He called Simon the rock.... Peter didn't become the head of the RCC. He never went to Rome and wasn't a supreme ruler over the other apostles. Actually, later in that chapter Jesus rebukes Peter...doesn't sound like the first "pope" to me. Also, in 1 Peter it talks about how we are all little stones making up the spiritual house. Which supports my original idea that the 'Church' is all born-again believers...no a certain body of believers. |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 30, 2009 9:15:48 GMT -5
Emily,
First, it says that we are "like living stones".
Second, this issue is about Peter not about other Christians.
Third, I'm not sure if you believe in 1 Peter because that book teaches baptismal regeneration.
So, lets go back to Matthew 16:18
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 30, 2009 9:18:26 GMT -5
Sorry Heather, I use all parts of the Bible to support what other verses say. I won't try to learn what God says using only that verse. And in 1 Peter it talks about a bunch of little stones, not just one big rock (actually when I looked up Peter's name it means stone, not rock). |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 30, 2009 9:20:57 GMT -5
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18 Why did Jesus call Peter a rock? When Jesus says he will build his church “on this rock,” he means a real rock. An actual, literal rock. But I don't know what type of rock. It could be either sedimentary or metophoric. Alfie, I will have to assume that you are serious when you wrote that. If so, are trying to say "Metamorphic"? If you are not being serious, are you trying to say "Metaphoric"? I mean, that is a cute word play, but if you want to talk about Matthew 16:18, can you please clarify what you meant? |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Jun 30, 2009 12:20:54 GMT -5
She was being sarcastic....its alfie talking...you have not picked up on it yet?
I find it humorous usually, unless it is towards a person on the board.
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Post by alfie on Jun 30, 2009 12:43:56 GMT -5
There is a verse in the Bible (I think it is in Revelation) that says the church is build on the foundation of all of the apostles. Jesus is the cornerstone and the apostles are the foundation.
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 10:13:01 GMT -5
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18 Why did Jesus call Peter a rock? When Jesus says he will build his church “on this rock,” he means a real rock. An actual, literal rock. But I don't know what type of rock. It could be either sedimentary or metophoric. But the question was, why did Jesus call "Simon" a rock (not where He'd build His Church). So, why did Jesus call "Simon" a "rock" in Matthew 16:18? |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 10:15:47 GMT -5
I'd have to study it out...but in Matt 16:16 Simon Peter tells Christ that he believes He is the Christ, the Son of the living God. It could be that Christ builds His church upon the foundation of Peter's testimony, the testimony that Christ is the Son of God. Those who will later place their faith in Christ, like Peter did....would make up the church Jesus is talking about. 1 Peter 2:5 talks about how we are all little precious stones making up the spiritual house. But, Jesus states that what Simon said didn't come from Simon (man), but from God (His Father) so this "testimony" couldn't be Simon's. It was God's testimony. And, scripture goes on later to reveal to us that The Apostles are the foundation of The Church (not a group of words). If you further continue in Matthew 16, you'll see that Jesus also gives the Keys of The Kingdom of Heaven to Simon (and to no one else). If Jesus was talking to Simon's "words", then wouldn't that mean that He gave the "Davidic Keys" to the "words" and not the man? |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 10:16:58 GMT -5
I'd have to study it out...but in Matt 16:16 Simon Peter tells Christ that he believes He is the Christ, the Son of the living God. It could be that Christ builds His church upon the foundation of Peter's testimony, the testimony that Christ is the Son of God. Those who will later place their faith in Christ, like Peter did....would make up the church Jesus is talking about. 1 Peter 2:5 talks about how we are all little precious stones making up the spiritual house. But, I have to say, I like your thinking here Em. |
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 10:16:51 GMT -5
Steven, So it's the group of Apostles or Disciples that are the foundation of the church then? Not just one of them?
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 11:28:40 GMT -5
It's Peter's testimony if he said and believed it. God revealed this truth to him. And in that verse it says "Peter....rock". So I'm confused by what you mean by He called Simon the rock.... 1. It's "not" Peter's testimony. Jesus said that no "man" revealed that to him. That includes Peter himself since he is a "man". It was God's revelation "to" Peter, but not Peter's revelation "to" Peter. 2. Jesus said..."And I tell you that you are Peter..." Do you know what "Peter" means? Peter means "rock". Jesus didn't say the name Peter, but the word Peter (or Cepha in Aramaic which is what He spoke...not The Queen's English). So, Jesus literally told Simon that he was a rock. He said "thou art rock" or "you are rock". He didn't literally say "you are Peter". Greek: petros--> English: "peter" --> title in English: "Peter". Or, here is how The Aramaic Translation Bible puts it: Matthew 16:18 18. I am also telling you that you are the Rock and on this rock I am building my Church, and the doors of sheol cannot draw it in.www.v-a.com/bible/matthew-16.htmlHow do you know this? He was the Shepherd of all The Apostles (John 21). And, he was "in" Rome. (1 Peter 5) And, The Church was not a "denominational" church, but a "universal" (Catholic) Church. So, that makes Peter the leader of The Catholic Church which was founded "in" Rome (where Jesus took the home of His enemies and conquered it with His Own Church right in the heart of The Roman Empire where Christianity would spring from! Amen!). What? Where did Jesus rebuke Peter? That never happened! Show me the scripture! LOL! Weren't all born again believers a "certain" body of believers since nobody was protesting The Church back then when Peter said this? There was only one universal Church back then (not like today where there is one universal Church and many denominational churches). So, when Peter said this, he was talking about The Church that existed. And, besides, The Church is founded upon The Apostles and the Prophets. Where is your "little stones" quote? |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 11:32:27 GMT -5
Sorry Heather, I use all parts of the Bible to support what other verses say. I won't try to learn what God says using only that verse. And in 1 Peter it talks about a bunch of little stones, not just one big rock (actually when I looked up Peter's name it means stone, not rock). What you're doing is what Satan did. He used to do the same thing. When he was in the desert trying to tempt Jesus, he too combined scriptures that had no relation to each other which in of themselves were all truthful quotes, but combined, created beliefs that didn't exist. Emily, a stone IS a rock! LOL! My native Greek speaking friend laughs at Protestants when they try to "redefine" words in Greek to fit their theology! stone1. the hard substance, formed of mineral matter, of which rocks consist.
2. a rock or particular piece or kind of rock, as a boulder or piece of agate.
3. a piece of rock quarried and worked into a specific size and shape for a particular purpose: paving stone; building stone.
4. a small piece of rock, as a pebble. |
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Post by Cepha on Jul 1, 2009 11:47:25 GMT -5
There is a verse in the Bible (I think it is in Revelation) that says the church is build on the foundation of all of the apostles. Jesus is the cornerstone and the apostles are the foundation. Exactly. The Cornerstone is the visible stone while The Foundation is buried beneath the ground (ground? soil? man!). The Cornerstone sets the rest of the foundation stones. They are aligned by it. The "structure" of The Church... Ephesians 2: 19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.Oh! And what are "foundations" made up of? Rock! ;D |
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Post by emily445455 on Jul 1, 2009 12:10:08 GMT -5
Steven, Jesus rebukes Peter in Matt 16:23 when he calls him satan. He also rebukes him later, well God does when he interupts what Peter is saying and talks over him.
Also, what kind of foundation can be set on a stone? I thought this was all about the foundation of the church, the catholic church.....I guess it's a really tiny church.
Little stones: 1 Peter 2:4-5 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spirtual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Wow...that is actually kind of amazing. Peter means stone, we are all stones...Peter along with all believers makes up the church. Wow...God is amazing to show us that in His Word.
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