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Post by teresahrc on Aug 6, 2008 14:07:40 GMT -5
What about children and babies who don't "accept Jesus as their personal savior"? How are they saved, or does God make them "spend eternity in hell" as watchman said?
God is Just and He is merciful. He alone condemns men to hell.
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Post by Cepha on Aug 6, 2008 14:29:00 GMT -5
What about children and babies who don't "accept Jesus as their personal savior"? How are they saved, or does God make them "spend eternity in hell" as watchman said? God is Just and He is merciful. He alone condemns men to hell. Well, then, there's an exception.  There's no such things as exceptions in Christ. Christ is either black or white....never gray.  |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 6, 2008 14:37:21 GMT -5
If you do not accept Jesus as your personal Savior, you will spend eternity in Hell,.... WM, Are babies going to hell? How about mentally challenged/Down Syndrome young adults who can't grasp the concept of God? How about a 4 year old who gets hit by a car and is in a coma and dies before he can practice your version of the ritual of accepting Christ to your standards? Or what if a person is on their way to get baptized, but they get attacked by a dog and are killed? Are they going to go to Hell for not making a "formal" acception of Christ in whichever way you accept ritually? Or is "intent" enough? Wierd questions, but that is the can of worms of your belief.  |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Aug 6, 2008 16:44:48 GMT -5
when did he say that? Im pretty sure that is not what he believes...
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Aug 6, 2008 20:34:22 GMT -5
that is not what he is saying, you need to reread the first line
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Aug 6, 2008 20:37:34 GMT -5
i guess it could be possible, there is only one true faith and all other faiths have a chance at heavan as well. Its not peoples fault that they are led wrong, so God understands that they are doing all they know and will forgive and show them. Maybe that is what cepha is saying. We are not the Judge, so we are all uncertain. I feel that everyone has a chance to go to heavan, those who believe that is.
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Aug 6, 2008 21:06:43 GMT -5
well, your not Christian if you dont believe in Christ's sacrifice, so they dont count. Im only speaking about christians.
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Post by Cepha on Aug 6, 2008 22:13:44 GMT -5
I wish I was like you guys. Amazing how you can respond to each other in 100 words or less! I need to learn how to do that. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 6, 2008 22:15:49 GMT -5
Anyone that believe there is another way to heaven outside of salvation through faith in Christ is a heretic, whether they are catholic, protestant ect..., I have already said I do not believe babies go to hell. There is no way to heaven outside of belief in Jesus. If you don't see the contradiction in your statement, then how can I argue that point? Read it again. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 6, 2008 22:21:57 GMT -5
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Post by Cepha on Aug 6, 2008 22:24:51 GMT -5
No one out side of infants, children with out the ability to comprehend salvation, the mentally handicap, and possibly some one that has never heard the gospel or the name Jesus will get into heaven without confession Christ as their Savior. Is that in The Bible? Or is this your personal "opinion"? If it's in The Bible, could you cite the chapter and verse? |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 6, 2008 22:30:16 GMT -5
when did he say that? Im pretty sure that is not what he believes... Read the thread he say it many times, or go to the islam forum in the baptised and muslim thread he says it in there. cepha is saying that you can reject Christ and still go to heaven. Yep! Jesus even showed it in scripture. The Samaritans rejected Jesus and he used one as an example as to how to be saved and that Samaritan was saved. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 11:22:01 GMT -5
Yep! Jesus even showed it in scripture. The Samaritans rejected Jesus and he used one as an example as to how to be saved and that Samaritan was saved. And how was the Samaritan saved? By accepting Jesus. It never mentioned The Samaritan mentioning Jesus. Yet, Jesus said that what he did is what gets one into heaven, even though he didn't accept Jesus Christ as his personal Lord & Savior. That's not a Biblical belief (that The Good Samaritan accepted Jesus as his personal Lord & Savior). |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 11:41:08 GMT -5
It never mentioned The Samaritan mentioning Jesus. Yet, Jesus said that what he did is what gets one into heaven, even though he didn't accept Jesus Christ as his personal Lord & Savior. That's not a Biblical belief (that The Good Samaritan accepted Jesus as his personal Lord & Savior). If you think you can get to the Father outside of Jesus then you are a heretic of the worst kind and you yourself are calling Jesus a liar. No, you are calling Jesus a liar when He said that The Good Samartian's actions were what gets one into Heaven. And, Jesus never said that the only way to The Father is through Him for non-Believers. Did He? Also, I notice that you are "not" addressing the instance in which Jesus said that The Good Samaritan is assured his place in heaven. You are calling me a liar for repeating what Jesus Himself said, so by default, you are calling Jesus a liar. |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Aug 7, 2008 12:38:19 GMT -5
Where in the Bible is this again?
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 12:53:22 GMT -5
Where in the Bible is this again? The Bible literally says this in Romans 2 when it talks about two groups that at the time were the difference between those that had access to Heaven because they were Jewish and were Believers and those that didn't because they were Gentiles and non-Believers. The Bible clearly states that the non-Believer would justified to God (saved) while the Believer that doesn't live The Word of God out would be condemned to hell. Why? Because both have The Word of God written on their hearts (as all mankind has, Believer or not) and it is obedience to His Word written one's heart that will save one...not just "believing" while "not" living out His Word. It talks about the hypocrisy of those who claim to be good enough to judge others on their personal beliefs "just" because they are Believers and have The Law (which for us would be The Gospel). It's about those who tought their personal relationship with God as some special permission to pass judgement as if they had the authority to tell others that they are wrong, while outrightly "not" displaying righteous behavior themselves (in other words, when their actions don't reflect Christ like behavior)...it talks about how some are look at this behavior and represent God in a bad light. It basically states that the non-Believer that lives God's will will condemn the Believer that "doesn't" live God's will. Romans 2:17-29 (NIV used for it's simplicity of text) Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself?
You who preach against stealing, do you steal?
You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery?
You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?
As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."
Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.
If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?
The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.
No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.
Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God._____________________________________________________________________ And Jesus regularly used "non-Jews" to shame them for their behavior showing that it is not merely by being part of a group or not being part of a group that one reflects what God wants. It is your actions that show what God wants (take the Good Samaritan story where a person who didn't believe in God did God's will by taking care of the man who was beaten while the Jews left him there to die). This would be considered blasphemy because the Samaritans didn't believe in The Messiah like The Jews did (they had their own Messiah). This exact example in modern times would apply to Muslims. But Jesus used them. So what does this teach us? That God's mercy encompasses all...not just any one specific group of people. It ain't just what one confesses or believes that saves you. It's also what you don't do or do. Lucky for us. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 12:53:36 GMT -5
And...
Luke 10:25-37
25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and made trial of him, saying, Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 And he said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
29 But he, desiring to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbor?
30 Jesus made answer and said, A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho; and he fell among robbers, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance a certain priest was going down that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And in like manner a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he was moved with compassion,
34 and came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on them oil and wine; and he set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 And on the morrow he took out two shillings, and gave them to the host, and said, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, I, when I come back again, will repay thee.
36 Which of these three, thinkest thou, proved neighbor unto him that fell among the robbers?
37 And he said, He that showed mercy on him. And Jesus said unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 13:24:36 GMT -5
No, you are calling Jesus a liar when He said that The Good Samartian's actions were what gets one into Heaven. And, Jesus never said that the only way to The Father is through Him for non-Believers. Did He? Also, I notice that you are "not" addressing the instance in which Jesus said that The Good Samaritan is assured his place in heaven. You are calling me a liar for repeating what Jesus Himself said, so by default, you are calling Jesus a liar. The bible does not say the good samaritian wen tto heaven it says he was the neighbor and to treat others likewise. Pick and choose, choose and pick. Jesus says that "this"is what one must do to get into Heaven, but you say that The Good Samaritan would be denied Heaven? I just want to be clear here. You're saying that Jesus would use a person who has no chance of being saved to teach a person how to be saved? Wait, before you answer, so that there's no excuse, here is the passage. Read it first. Remember, Samaritans don't worship God (as Jesus says, they worship what they "don't" know and salvation only comes "from" The Jews...He literally told a Samaritan this, yet uses a Samaritan to teach one how to get into Heaven...): ________________________________________________________________________ Luke 10:25-37 25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and made trial of him, saying, Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 And he said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
29 But he, desiring to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbor?
30 Jesus made answer and said, A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho; and he fell among robbers, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance a certain priest was going down that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And in like manner a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he was moved with compassion,
34 and came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on them oil and wine; and he set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 And on the morrow he took out two shillings, and gave them to the host, and said, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, I, when I come back again, will repay thee.
36 Which of these three, thinkest thou, proved neighbor unto him that fell among the robbers?
37 And he said, He that showed mercy on him. And Jesus said unto him, Go, and do thou likewise. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 13:26:16 GMT -5
Where in the Bible is this again? Listen closely cc, because cepha is a false teacher of damnable heresies. 2nd Peter 2:1 But there will be false prophets also among the people, even as there are false teachers among you, who privily will bring damnable heresies, even denying the Lord Jesus that bought them, and bring to themselves swift destruction. cepha is one of these heretics and false teachers. B4 the death and resurrection of Christ you could get into heaven through the sacrifice of lambs and bulls, by faith in God and keeping of the law, under the new covenant the only way to be washed of your sins and reconciled to God is through faith in Jesus. Anyone that teaches otherwise is a false teachers denying the Lord who bought them and will indeed bring to themselves swift destruction. Wow. According to Him, so is Jesus because Jesus was the One Who said that a Samaritan did what it takes to get into Heaven. (Notice how he misuses scripture to insult, but he didn't use it to prove his point?) |
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Post by teresahrc on Aug 7, 2008 13:33:11 GMT -5
Yikes!
I don't believe anyone will get to the Father "outside of Jesus"!
Every single person in heaven will be there through Jesus. I don't think we are really talking about that here. At least that's not why I'm saying. I'm saying that there doesn't have to be some kind of "magic formula" sinner's prayer confession in order to reach Jesus. Watchman, you yourself said that you believe that
"possibly some one that has never heard the gospel or the name of Jesus will get into heaven without confession Christ as their Savior"
Ok, so how is that any different from what Cepha is saying? Or what I have been saying? The fact is that we are not God!!!!
The Church has the keys of the kingdom of heaven, but only Jesus has the keys of death and hades, that is only He can condemn someone to hell.
It is our duty to pray and preach and work for souls to be saved, but it is not our duty to go beyond that.
6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[c]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). (Romans 10)
hum.... what say ye?
teresa
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