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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 22:41:51 GMT -5
Hey guys,
I'd like your opinion on this.
I sent someone here a note telling him that I was going to respond to him tomorrow because I was tired basically out of common courtesy. I wished him a good night.
Here's my PM to him:
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 22:42:56 GMT -5
To my surprise, I received this note from him:
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 22:50:06 GMT -5
Now, I've been pretty rough with my words.
We've gotten pretty heated in our exchanges,
but I've never experienced such hostility especially
after having extended my hand out.
I'm far from a Saint, I know this, but man.
This PM left me truly hurt.
So I responded as best as I know how:
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 23:01:27 GMT -5
If I ever, ever, ever treat any of you in that nasty a manner, please, call me out. I would never want to make anybody feel the way that I was just made to feel.
In the heat of a debate is one thing,
but to have my extended kindness slapped,
wow...how does one turn the other cheek?
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jacee
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by jacee on Apr 7, 2008 23:25:14 GMT -5
I will never sit in the judgement seat of Moses. It is not my judgement as to who is His and who is not.
But, I will always uphold scripture. That is why I ask why catholics don't speak of "ye must be born again".
Those who are have one thing in common. They know Jesus gives each one "a new heart".
It is a matter of eternal life with God or not.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 8, 2008 0:13:38 GMT -5
I will never sit in the judgement seat of Moses. It is not my judgement as to who is His and who is not. But, I will always uphold scripture. That is why I ask why catholics don't speak of "ye must be born again". Those who are have one thing in common. They know Jesus gives each one "a new heart". It is a matter of eternal life with God or not. How many times do I have to tell you? We have so many more things to talk about than just a few things. That's the benefit of 2,000 years VS 200 years of Christianity. We speak of so much more that "just" being born again. That's just a piece of a very large puzzle (not the whole puzzle). Even Jesus defended those who had authority to teach back then. If God (Jesus) defended it, why do people still have a problem with it?  |
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Post by knuckle on Apr 8, 2008 5:30:54 GMT -5
Hi Cepha-----------------
I read the bible thread where you were speaking about your evangelism teams and door knocking.Having the heart of an evangelist myself I must ask---When you are preaching in a parking lot,what part of the "puzzle" do you preach?2000 vs 200 vs 2 million makes no difference.If someone came and asked you "Steve,what must I do to be saved?" How do you answer them?
Jacee is my sister because she knows the answer and can give it to any one clearly without mentioning denominations affiliations church fathers saints or doctrines.She knows that right there in that parking lot the lost can come to Jesus without a church house or a priest or anything else.------I have many brothers and sisters in the catholic church who can do the same thing--You might have met them on "that other board".Do we agree on everything?no, but knowing the answer to the above question supersedes and makes us family It is a tie that binds us that satan can't undo and death has no power over.We wear it openly for all the world to see,not hiding it under a bunch of other things---it is a four story bill board not a prize at the bottom of a box of cracker jacks.
The question is "Do you know Jesus?!!" not what church do you go to? or which bible do you read? or anything else Jesus is the question,the puzzle,the answer,the Truth,the Way and the Life He is the race the battle and the prize.The Alpha and Omega and everything in between.
much love to you Cepha,Brother---------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Apr 8, 2008 9:23:20 GMT -5
I'm not familiar with what thread you're referring to. But to answer your question...no. I don't preach. Jesus only told The Apostles to preach, not common laypersons. That's a different story (on salvation), if someone asks me, I'd tell them to consult with God. I have no authority to tell a man what to do in their personal relationship with God. Only God can call a man to do this. I haven't been called to act as His evangelizer. But there is a difference on what one group knows historically when you have a discrepancy of over a thousand years. In the context of historical knowledge, it matters. I would say that most people come to Christ in the very shoes that their standing in at the time (or on the spot their standing barefoot on) whether it be in a parking lot, a whorehouse, a crack den, an office building or a church. Amen. I agree with you whole heartedly. Remember, even Jesus Christ Himself taught that we are not to discriminate against, to attempt to stop or to judge those in other Christian Churches or that are Christians outside of our respective religious groups: Mark 9 38 And John did answer him, saying, `Teacher, we saw a certain one in thy name casting out demons, who doth not follow us, and we forbade him, because he doth not follow us.' 39 And Jesus said, `Forbid him not, for there is no one who shall do a mighty work in my name, and shall be able readily to speak evil of me: 40 for he who is not against us is for us; Exactly. One doesn't even have to be "in" a church to have a personal relationship with God. It's not the church that makes the Christian, but his relationship with God that does. Amen. Much love to you too brother Knuckle.  [/quote] |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 8, 2008 10:19:40 GMT -5
I will never sit in the judgement seat of Moses. It is not my judgement as to who is His and who is not. But, I will always uphold scripture. That is why I ask why catholics don't speak of "ye must be born again". Those who are have one thing in common. They know Jesus gives each one "a new heart". It is a matter of eternal life with God or not. Satan and Demons "know" Jesus...how come they don't have a new heart? |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 8, 2008 10:49:52 GMT -5
Its more than just "knowing Jesus" its also a way of life!
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 8, 2008 10:55:59 GMT -5
BTW, concerning the original post....VERY wrong!
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Post by Cepha on Apr 8, 2008 10:58:08 GMT -5
Its more than just "knowing Jesus" its also a way of life! You got it CC. And on top of that Jesus said that professing His name is not enough: Matthew 7 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.' |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 8, 2008 10:58:59 GMT -5
BTW, concerning the original post....VERY wrong! I'm glad somebody besides me thinks so and commented on it. Thank you.  |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Aug 6, 2008 0:09:02 GMT -5
I have never heard Cepha say that! Catholics believe you must be one with Christ. So you are wrong there brother!
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Post by Cepha on Aug 6, 2008 6:56:21 GMT -5
I have never heard Cepha say that! Catholics believe you must be one with Christ. So you are wrong there brother! Yes and no. What I said is that non-Christians (which is different than just saying people generally) can be justified to God and thus gain entry into Heaven. The Bible literally says this in Romans 2 when it talks about two groups that at the time were the difference between those that had access to Heaven because they were Jewish and were Believers and those that didn't because they were Gentiles and non-Believers. The Bible clearly states that the non-Believer would justified to God (saved) while the Believer that doesn't live The Word of God out would be condemned to hell. Why? Because both have The Word of God written on their hearts (as all mankind has, Believer or not) and it is obedience to His Word written one's heart that will save one...not just "believing" while "not" living out His Word. It talks about the hypocrisy of those who claim to be good enough to judge others on their personal beliefs "just" because they are Believers and have The Law (which for us would be The Gospel). It's about those who tought their personal relationship with God as some special permission to pass judgement as if they had the authority to tell others that they are wrong, while outrightly "not" displaying righteous behavior themselves (in other words, when their actions don't reflect Christ like behavior)...it talks about how some are look at this behavior and represent God in a bad light. It basically states that the non-Believer that lives God's will will condemn the Believer that "doesn't" live God's will. Romans 2:17-29 (NIV used for it's simplicity of text) Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself?
You who preach against stealing, do you steal?
You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery?
You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?
As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."
Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.
If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?
The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.
No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.
Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God._____________________________________________________________________ And Jesus regularly used "non-Jews" to shame them for their behavior showing that it is not merely by being part of a group or not being part of a group that one reflects what God wants. It is your actions that show what God wants (take the Good Samaritan story where a person who didn't believe in God did God's will by taking care of the man who was beaten while the Jews left him there to die). This would be considered blasphemy because the Samaritans didn't believe in The Messiah like The Jews did (they had their own Messiah). This exact example in modern times would apply to Muslims. But Jesus used them. So what does this teach us? That God's mercy encompasses all...not just any one specific group of people. It ain't what one confesses or believes that saves you. It's also what you don't do or do. Lucky for us. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 6, 2008 7:05:20 GMT -5
(By the way, Catechism of The Catholic Church:)
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims.
"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator,
in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims;
these profess to hold the faith of Abraham,
and together with us they adore the one,
merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
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Post by Cepha on Aug 6, 2008 8:14:17 GMT -5
And also, it's true (what CC said)...I never said that. Without Christ, no one would get into Heaven. It was His sacrifice that delivers all mankind from the curse of death from original sin...even those that don't accept Him. Gifts aren't conditional. They are free. If it wasn't free, if it requires a condition, then it is not a gift, but a barter. The only trade Jesus made was His blood for our sins. Jesus never forces Himself on anyone. Whether we know it or not, whoever gets into Heaven, it is possible (not guaranteed) because of Christ's sacrifice. It is an unconditional gift for "all" man (not just for Believers). This doesn't automatically equate to "all will be saved", but it simply means that His sacrifice pays the ransom unconditionally for original sin. After that, it's up to us whether or not we get into Heaven with "how" we live our lives. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 6, 2008 8:22:20 GMT -5
1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
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Post by Cepha on Aug 6, 2008 13:23:05 GMT -5
If you do not accept Jesus as your personal Savior, you will spend eternity in Hell, to say anything else is heresy, and if this is the teaching of the catholic church,which I do nopt believe it is then that would prove every thing I have ever heard about it's evilness, and if it is not the teaching of the catholic church, then why are you promoting this lie from satan. That was a very confusing response, but I'll try to see what I get from it. Now, Jesus never said that anyone had to accept Him as their personal Lord & Savior. If you can find Him saying this, please, show me the scripture. Jesus condemns those who accepted Him to Hell... Matthew 25 44 Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.
46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life. Being a Christian doesn't get you into Heaven and it certainly doesn't keep you out of Hell. Only those who lived His will, the righteous shall go to Heaven. And Jesus doesn't say "the Christian Righteous", just The Righteous. Can you find a scripture that says tha only Christians will go to Heaven? I'm sure you can find scriptures that say that one must believe in Him, but that is addressed to those considering Him in the first place. Would you say that The Christian that doesn't believe that The Eucharist is Jesus' flesh and blood isn't going to go to Heaven? |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 6, 2008 13:47:01 GMT -5
And, Christ Himself used non-Believers to teach Believers how they were to act to please God. So if Jesus says that a non-Believer did the will of His Father, someone who hadn't "accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord & Savior", would God forbid this person from Heaven?
And Jesus told those who wanted to be saved that they were to follow what a non-Believer did.
So, that is proof that a non-Believer "can" get into Heaven.
The "true Believer" must accept this.
When they asked Jesus what they were to do to get saved, He used a non-Believer as an example to follow. If non-Believers can't be saved, then this makes Jesus a false teacher and it means that He was purposely misleading His followers.
Since we know that this is impossible, then it must be true that non-Believers who prove to be good neighbors will go to Heaven.
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