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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 20:25:13 GMT -5
Also, I am awaiting eagerly for ur response to watchman. It gets quite interesting between the 2 of you.  I think he has u stumped b/c you have yet to answer him. stop reiterating the same point please. it appears he has already debunked it. smiles Which question have I not answered? And, I am reiterating the same point because he still refuses to admit that Jesus used a non-Believer to prove to show what one must do to inherit eternal life. Remember, I am on topic here. Have you noticed that he is attributing words to Christ that He never said in The Parable of The Good Samaritan? (The Parable of The Good Samaritan is the topic of the exchange) |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 20:26:20 GMT -5
Also, I am awaiting eagerly for ur response to watchman. It gets quite interesting between the 2 of you. I think he has u stumped b/c you have yet to answer him. stop reiterating the same point please. it appears he has already debunked it. smiles Oh yeah, where's the quote I asked "you" for, where you said Jesus said He's the only way? |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 20:45:33 GMT -5
You are being deceitful, I have already answered you question on Jesus respond to the lawyer, but I will attampt one mor etime to help you see the truth, the lawyer asked what shall we do to gain eternal life, Jesus tells him what does the law say and the lawyer says to love God and your neighbor Jesus says do this and you will have eternal life. But, what did Jesus say to him when the Lawyer wanted to justify himself? Read on...don't just take a fragment of the entire passage and ignore the rest...what did Jesus tell him to "do"? Jesus didn't tell him to "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself"...that was the Lawyer's answer "to" Jesus. Jesus confirmed his answer and told him to do that "and" he would have eternal life, but (again) the teaching didn't stop there...it continued. And that is what led to what Jesus actually told the Lawyer to do...do as The Samaritan did in order to be justified to God (which is what the scripture said the Lawyer was trying to do). Jesus literally told the Lawyer (a sworn enemy of the Samaritans) when asked who was his neighbor that of the 3, it was The Samaritan who did the work that proved himself to be the neighbor to the fallen man. The Samaritan was "what" the Lawyer was to be like if he wanted eternal life. You have to take the complete Parable in context and not break it up and try to separate it. And, Jesus used The Samaritan to prove to the Lawyer how he was to act in order to inherit eternal life...showing him "who" was a neighbor unto the fallen (again). That is an indisputable fact...The Samaritan was a non-Believer. Jesus pointed out that two believers left the fallen man. The non-Believer did God's will (he showed mercy to the fallen man). |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 20:56:29 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but I do have a deep deep problem with this statement. What is paradise except the presence of God? If you aren't in God's presence, then you aren't in paradise. Paradise is not some tropical beach with a bunch of coconut trees (Or do you mean the Muslim concept of "paradise" which is your own date palm and 70 virgins?) Sorry to be so zealous about this topic, but I just can't imagine how you could call anything "paradise" if God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit, one God forever and ever) are not with you! No wonder Jesus said to the (ex)thief on the cross: "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." Think about that one! He said TODAY you will be WITH ME in paradise! If you're not with Jesus, you're not in Paradise. Period. teresa Teresa, You were so humble when you first came on her, but my gosh, you certainly know how to shut an exchange down! " They went to paradise to await the fulfillment of the promise of Messiah, they did not go to heaven until the ascension of Christ " " I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.;
Think about that one! He said TODAY you will be WITH ME in paradise! " Outstanding! Another case of his words contradicting Christ's!  So which "paradise" is the Protestant paradise if "not" Jesus' Kingdom?  (I tell you, the best Catholic Apologists are former Protestants!) ;D |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 21:25:38 GMT -5
Yet with all you have said show me where it says that the samaritan himself gained eternal life as you claim. When Jesus called him the neighbor that does what one must do to gain eternal life. Now, what Bible version do you use? |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 21:33:14 GMT -5
When Jesus called him the neighbor that does what one must do to gain eternal life. Now, what Bible version do you use? He told the pharisee to go and do likewise Luke 10:37 He never says that the samaritan was going to heaven. Again, you believe that Jesus would use an unsaved person to teach a person who wanted to be saved how to be. Odd. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 21:52:01 GMT -5
cepha, once again you show your ignorance of scripture, Jesus did not go to heaven when He died He went to paradise, which was not heaven it was were the O.T. saints as well as Lazarus from Luke 16 were waiting for Him to come and cleans their sins. So what you're saying is that paradise is "not" Jesus' Kingdom? "Not" Heaven? Luke 23 42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Is that what you're saying? That Jesus' Kingdom is "not" Heaven? Right here... 43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.See that? He said "Today...". Literally. Being that to God a day is like a thousand years, for us, we could fit 3, 40, 1260 days...and it would still be possible according to what time is to Christ. So Jesus could say that and literally mean it! Now, show me where the Bible says paradise is "not" Jesus' Kingdom! 2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.Revelation 22 1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. According to The Bible, the Tree of Life is in Heaven in Jesus' Kingdom. It's in Paradise. So, Paradise "is" Heaven. Do you see it differently from scripture? |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 21:53:52 GMT -5
How are you born again, cepha? Send The Pope a Money Order or Cashier's Check for $249.00 and you'll get a certificate in the mail that will guarantee you're saved! And when you die, you take that certificate and give it to Saint Peter after you get off of the escalator to Heaven!  |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 21:54:34 GMT -5
Again, you believe that Jesus would use an unsaved person to teach a person who wanted to be saved how to be. Odd. You can believe what ever you want to be odd, but do not add to the word of God to make it say what you want it to say. You forgot one...what Bible "version" do you use? |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 22:04:13 GMT -5
You forgot one...what Bible "version" do you use? What Bible do you use? You first... ;D (I only asked you about 1/2 a dozen times already) |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 22:05:00 GMT -5
So what you're saying is that paradise is "not" Jesus' Kingdom? "Not" Heaven? Luke 23 42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Is that what you're saying? That Jesus' Kingdom is "not" Heaven? Right here... 43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.See that? He said "Today...". Literally. Being that to God a day is like a thousand years, for us, we could fit 3, 40, 1260 days...and it would still be possible according to what time is to Christ. So Jesus could say that and literally mean it! Now, show me where the Bible says paradise is "not" Jesus' Kingdom! 2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.Revelation 22 1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. According to The Bible, the Tree of Life is in Heaven in Jesus' Kingdom. It's in Paradise. So, Paradise "is" Heaven. Do you see it differently from scripture? Are you trying to say Jesus did not descend to the belly of the earth when He died, but that He went straight to Heaven? If this is not what you are saying then the rest of your post is irrelevent because it has nothing to do with our convo. Could you answer my questions first? Then I'll answer yours gladly. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 22:12:50 GMT -5
Could you answer my questions first? Then I'll answer yours gladly. If you really want to know what Bible I use you will tell me first  Another of the tactics listed in my May post on how Anti-Catholics refuse to answer questions and tap dance and bob & weave. You cannot deny that you fit the mold. You are so predictable. You spend more time "not" answering a question and arguing about the question than just answering it. It's ok...you must have something to hide. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 8, 2008 15:49:51 GMT -5
I have nothing to hide, but you must, if it was important to the conversation to which Bible either of us used, you would have no problem with telling me which version you use, but you refuse, if you refuse then I refuse. The pharisees asked Jesus what authority Did He proclaim such things, and He asked them what authority John had to baptized people they would not answer Him so He did not answer them. Which one of the two had something to hide? You tell me what Bible you use and I will gladly tell you what Bible I use. Although anyone that read the verses that I have quoted should be able to figure it out..hint, hint... Again, spending more time and text complaining "about" the question, than just answering it. Is that what you're saying? That Jesus' Kingdom is "not" Heaven?
So what you're saying is that paradise is "not" Jesus' Kingdom?
"Not" Heaven?
According to The Bible, the Tree of Life is in Heaven in Jesus' Kingdom. It's in Paradise. So, Paradise "is" Heaven. Do you see it differently from scripture?
These were the "questions" (not question) I was referring to. If you go back and re-read the post you responded to, you answered my questions with a question completely avoiding answering them. I simply asked you to answer my questions first and then I'd respond to yours. I never once metioned what version of the bible you used in the question that you were responding to. You skipped over my questioning of what you beleived paradise to be in relation to heaven and went back to talking about bible versions in an attempt to piggyback it to our discussion on paradise. Diversion. I guess, you couldn't answer me either.  |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 8, 2008 16:56:58 GMT -5
Paradise was the same as Abraham's bossom, it was in the belly of the earth across from hell according to the story in Luke 16 about the rich man and lazarus, as well as the statement Jesus made that just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale for 3 days and 3 night so would he be in the belly of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights. I'm sorry, but I don't see "paradise" mentioned in Luke 16. Could you be more specific? Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that you use the entire passage to attempt to prove it, but I just don't see the word paradise there, nor the mention of anything resembling paradise. Hell. What about the scriptures I provided above that state that paradise is actually in Heaven? You don't believe those? I believe Moses & Elijah were. Everybody else, dead. Buried in the ground. Those that were able to meet the requisites of God (having lived a good life that pleased Him) were raised at the moment that Jesus died...the Saints that rose from their graves). The rest, hell. Jesus went to hell first. St. Paul teaches (Eph. 4:9) that before ascending into Heaven Christ "also descended first into the lower parts of the earth," and St. Peter still more explicitly teaches that "being put to death indeed, in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit," Christ went and "preached to those souls that were in prison, which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noah" (I Pet 3:18-20). www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm"souls that were in prison" don't sound like paradise to me. What does sound like paradise to me? Like what Revelations says it is. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 8, 2008 17:02:33 GMT -5
Again, the "scriptures" that say that both Jesus' Kingdom and paradise are in Heaven:
Luke 23
42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Revelation 22
1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
According to The Bible, the Tree of Life is in Heaven in Jesus' Kingdom.
It's "in" Paradise. So, Paradise is "in" Heaven where Jesus promised the thief he'd be with Him.
Do you see it differently from scripture?
____________________________________________________
Everything here says that paradise is in heaven (including the tree of life and Jesus' Kingdom that the thief referred to).
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Post by Cepha on Aug 8, 2008 18:10:03 GMT -5
I can't. Technically, it is a Jewish reference for going to hell. The phrase "Bosom of Abraham" refers to the place of comfort in sheol (Greek: hades) where the Jews said the righteous dead awaited Judgment Day. The phrase "Bosom of Abraham" is found in Luke 16:22-23 in Jesus' parable of the Lazarus and the Rich Man. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosom_of_AbrahamSome call it literally "Heaven". (Which again, if true, would place paradice "in" Heaven just as I and The Scriptures have been trying to tell you all along) |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 8, 2008 18:42:09 GMT -5
I can't. Technically, it is a Jewish reference for going to hell. The phrase "Bosom of Abraham" refers to the place of comfort in sheol (Greek: hades) where the Jews said the righteous dead awaited Judgment Day. The phrase "Bosom of Abraham" is found in Luke 16:22-23 in Jesus' parable of the Lazarus and the Rich Man. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosom_of_AbrahamSome call it literally "Heaven". (Which again, if true, would place paradice "in" Heaven just as I and The Scriptures have been trying to tell you all along) This is not a parrable of Jesus it was a true story, read it,He told it as truth. Next it wasn't hell, hell is where the rich man went, not Lazarus. It was a waiting place for the righteous Jews until they could be completely freed from their sins by Christ's sacrifice, and it is where Jesus went after His death until His resurrection. In other words, it "wasn't" paradise.  |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 8, 2008 19:12:49 GMT -5
You may say it was not paradise, but Jesus called it paradise. Luke 23:43 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you, today you will be with me in paradise. But The Word of God said paradise is in heaven and you said that Jesus didn't go to heaven first so if he didn't go to heaven, he didn't go to paradise? Which is it? Since Jesus doesn't lie and His Word matches scripture, then He and The Bible agree where Heaven is. ;D Allow me to remind you of what you said... Now, let's compare that to The Word of God... Again, the "scriptures" that say that both Jesus' Kingdom and paradise are in Heaven: ___________________________________________________ Luke 2342And he said unto Jesus, Lord,
remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee,
Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Revelation 2:7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,
which is in the midst of the paradise of God.Revelation 221And he shewed me a pure river of water of life,
clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of
the Lamb.
2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and
of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. According to The Bible, the Tree of Life is in Heaven in Jesus' Kingdom. It's " in" Paradise. So, Paradise is " in" Heaven where Jesus promised the thief he'd be with Him. ____________________________________________________ Everything here says that paradise is in heaven (including the tree of life and Jesus' Kingdom that the thief referred to). ____________________________________________________ Ok, let's compare your religious beliefs to scripture: Word of Watchman...Word of God...Luke 2342And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Jesus' Kingdom=paradiseRevelation 2:7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.tree of life "in" paradiseRevelation 221And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. Throne of Jesus=His Kingdom
tree of life "in" His Kingdom
tree of life is "in" paradiseTherefore, The Tree of Life is "in" Paradise which according to The Word of God is in Heaven since that is where Jesus' Throne is...His Kingdom. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 8, 2008 20:41:58 GMT -5
double talk yourself until you are blue in the face when Jesus died He descended first. Ephesians 4:9 Now he that ascended, was is it but he descended first into the lower parts of the earth.And He stayed there for 3 days and 3 nights How's this for double talk...to God (Who is also Jesus), 1 day is like a thousand years. So, 3 days for him fits in one day. Unless, you refute the scripture that states that. So, Jesus could literally say from His perspective of time that The Thief would be in Heaven with Him on the same day (because you can literally [according to time for God] fit 3 man days into one God day). In other words, how you believe, Jesus lied when He said they'd be in Heaven (which The Bible in Revelations calls paradise)? Remember again, to Jesus (AKA God), 1 day = a thousand years. God bless you and your loved ones Watchman. May God multiply upon you a hundred fold, what you wish upon me. Excuse me...
1 Peter 3:9-11
Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing …
turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it…
 1 Corinthians 4:10-13
We are fools for Christ…
To this very hour…
we are brutally treated…
When we are cursed, we bless;
when we are persecuted, we endure it;
when we are slandered, we answer kindly. [/b] |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 8, 2008 20:59:01 GMT -5
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I think he has u stumped b/c you have yet to answer him. stop reiterating the same point please. it appears he has already debunked it. 
