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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 14:36:09 GMT -5
They went to paradise to await the fulfillment of the promise of Messiah, they did not go to heaven until the acsention of Christ. I wouldn't doubt that, but is this in The Bible? Or is this your personal belief? Just would like to see this pre-Christian Purgatory. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 14:39:34 GMT -5
You're a Protestant. You believe in a waiting place outside of Heaven for people bound for Heaven. That's a Purgatory! ;D Call it what you want, I am not protestant, Prot·es·tant –noun 1. any Western Christian who is not an adherent of a Catholic, Anglican, or Eastern Church. 2. an adherent of any of those Christian bodies that separated from the Church of Rome during the Reformation, or of any group descended from them. 3. (originally) any of the German princes who protested against the decision of the Diet of Speyer in 1529, which had denounced the Reformation. 4. (lowercase) a person who protests. –adjective 5. belonging or pertaining to Protestants or their religion. 6. (lowercase) protesting. I wouldn't insult you by saying that you are a member of the mainstream Protestant churches. ;D Brother, even protestants don't go along with protestant teachins!  |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 14:53:35 GMT -5
all muslims know who Jesus is his birth is in the quoran, thy believe that Jesus was born of a vrigin ''mary'' and that he lived a sinless life and that he acsended to heaven and will return again. Muslims are "not" raised as Christians. They are taught different things about Jesus. They don't get indoctrinated as Christians, but as Muslims. To simply tell someone about Jesus isn't what convinces them to become Christians. There are people who call themselves Christians that aren't Christians. There are non-Christians who live "Christlike" lives, a lot more than supposed Christians do. You're very caught up in titles and descriptions. You're about words said instead of deeds done. It's not just what one confesses that defines one (parable of Jesus of two sons; one that said he was going to do his fahters's will, but didn't and the other who said he wasn't going to do his father's will, but then actually did and it was the one that "did" the will of his father that was right, while the one who just said he'd do it, but never did it was wrong). James 2. Read it. Learn it. Accept it. Live it. Again, it's not in "hearing" The Gospel that one is given a choice to believe. It is God who opens a man's heart to the truth. If God didn't open their hearts, that's His choice. We are no one to judge God's choices. Jesus died for them too, so they are delivered from the curse of original sin, however, like us, they too will be judged by their works. You're making it sound as if what applies to Christians, applies to all mankind and that's simply "not" true. One first has to actually "believe" in Christianity in order for them to be accountable to Christianity's judgements. A baby is born and dies on the table seconds after. He never heard The Gospel. Yet you consider him/her to be saved automatically. A child is indoctrinated into Islam from birth, dies at the age of say 8 years old and never accepts Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior. Is he condemned to eternal damnation? Or does God make a special exception for him/her too? At what age or level of reasoning do you think God starts cutting people off of the "exception rule"? What about the 39 year old man who was misindoctrinated? Is he damned to hell too for wanting to believe something he "thought" was the truth? The NT is full of examples of false teachers. It focuses the guilt upon the teacher, not the student. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 14:56:03 GMT -5
I have no intentions of changing the subject, the subject is that you say there is salvation outside of belief in Christ and that is a very dangerous heresy that no real christian would teach. Jesus taught it when He said that The Good Samaritan did the things that would gain one entry into The Kingdom of Heaven. And I agree with Him. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 14:58:19 GMT -5
Don't just say I said it...quote me. I ask this ''I may be mistaking, but are any of you saying that a muslim can get to heaven without confession Christ as the Son of God? His death on the cross and resurrection on the third day?'' in the 10th reply in the thread a muslim and a southern baptist on the islam forum. cepha answer in the very next reply on the same thread was...... YES!!! Yeah. Even Jesus said that The Good Samaritan did what it took to get to Heaven without mentioning any of those things or faith in Him. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 14:59:03 GMT -5
Jesus is right.
You are wrong.
Bend your mind to the scripture.
Stop trying to bend the scripture to your mind.
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 14:59:43 GMT -5
Most Muslims that convert to christianity do so because they say that a christian showed them kindness or Jesus appeared to them in a dream. Muslims that do not convert to Christianity will not be in heaven, period. Is that "in" The Bible? Or is this your personal belief? |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 15:00:17 GMT -5
By the way, one has to actually believe "in" Christ in the first place before they can reject him.
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 15:07:04 GMT -5
And... Now, do you agree with what Jesus said or not? That by being a good neighbor as He described it in that parable, that this is the way to gain entry into The Kingdom of Heaven? Yes or no? The only way top get to heaven is by confessing Him as you own personal Lord and Savior, then living a life that portrays this confession. You're answer is no then. You disagree with Jesus who used a man who religiously rejected the Jewish Messiah (namely Him) to teach how one is to gain entry into Heaven. And, you are saying that Jesus lied when He said that one could get into Heaven by being a good neighbor as He described it (without ever mentioning belief in Him). |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 15:10:14 GMT -5
Jesus di not teach there was a way to heaven outside of His sacrifice, this samaritan lived under the Old covenant not the New. The Samaritans were "not" Jews. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 15:12:01 GMT -5
As for the 2nd statement yes it is in the Bible no one outside of Christ will get into heaven, even though you deny God's word it is in there. It doesn't say "Muslims". Muslims didn't exist when that was written. In fact, The Bible makes provisions for savation for those who "don't" have The Law in Romans 2. That is the opposite of what you are saying here. |
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Post by teresahrc on Aug 7, 2008 18:22:34 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but I do have a deep deep problem with this statement. What is paradise except the presence of God? If you aren't in God's presence, then you aren't in paradise. Paradise is not some tropical beach with a bunch of coconut trees (Or do you mean the Muslim concept of "paradise" which is your own date palm and 70 virgins?) Sorry to be so zealous about this topic, but I just can't imagine how you could call anything "paradise" if God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit, one God forever and ever) are not with you!
No wonder Jesus said to the (ex)thief on the cross:
"I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
Think about that one! He said TODAY you will be WITH ME in paradise!
If you're not with Jesus, you're not in Paradise. Period.
teresa
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 19:53:39 GMT -5
Jesus never said you could get to heaven by being a good neighbor. Luke 10:25-37 25And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
29But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
30And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.As you'll see here, when Jesus was asked how does one inherit eternal life, Jesus gave them an example using a non-Believer (a Samaritan...people who rejected the Jewish Messiah) and a couple of Believers (Jews...people who were supposed accept Jesus). He taught them that of those three, only the non-Believer did what it took to inherit eternal life and Jesus instructed the lawyer to do the same as the answer to the lawyer's question. So, the answer to the lawyer's question as to how to inherit etenal life was to do as the Samaritan did and not as the Jews did.  The Good Samaritan |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 19:55:43 GMT -5
Hello everyone, I'm new here and was just reading some threads. I try to stick to edification type but this peaked my interest. So, if I'm reading this correctly, it appears there are some who are Christians in here who think there is other ways to Heaven. This baffles me because the basis of Christianity is Christ. How can one think there is another way when Christ makes it clear that he is the ONLY way. As watchman has posted many scriptures. I'm curious to how or why a "Christian" would dare say the Bible contradicts itself with the heresy. Read Romans 2 and The Good Samaritan Parable. They say otherwise. Also, Scripture doesn't contradict itself. Therefore, if one finds contradiction in scripture, then it is the person who is wrong (not The Bible). What "exactly" does Jesus say He is the only way? What is the "exact" scripture? Word for word... |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 19:58:21 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but I do have a deep deep problem with this statement. What is paradise except the presence of God? If you aren't in God's presence, then you aren't in paradise. Paradise is not some tropical beach with a bunch of coconut trees (Or do you mean the Muslim concept of "paradise" which is your own date palm and 70 virgins?) Sorry to be so zealous about this topic, but I just can't imagine how you could call anything "paradise" if God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit, one God forever and ever) are not with you! No wonder Jesus said to the (ex)thief on the cross: "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." Think about that one! He said TODAY you will be WITH ME in paradise! If you're not with Jesus, you're not in Paradise. Period. teresa so where do you think the O. T. saint were when awaiting Christ to cleans their sin? what do you think Abraham's bossom was? who do you think those who were in prison that Jesus set free after his death b4 his resurrection? They were in their graves. They were the ones who rose up in Matthew 27:51-53 after His sacrifice was complete. No one was "pre-saved". No one had "salvation credit". Matthew 27:51-53 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Where do "you" think they were and were are your sriptures to prove it? |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 20:00:22 GMT -5
It doesn't say "Muslims". Muslims didn't exist when that was written. In fact, The Bible makes provisions for savation for those who "don't" have The Law in Romans 2. That is the opposite of what you are saying here. Romans 2 never says there is salvation outside of belief in Jesus Oh yes it does. If one didn't even believe in The Law, they surely didn't believe in The Messiah. And it says tha even those that don't have The Law yet live it (non-Believers) would be justified to God. While those that had The Law, but didn't live it, wouldn't be justified. Romans 2. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 20:04:49 GMT -5
This sounds just like you...
Romans 2 (NIV)
The Jews and the Law
17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."
25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the[c] written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.
King James Version
17Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 20:11:37 GMT -5
This is a lie from the deceiver, I have already pointed out that when Jesus was asked who to gain eternal life His answer was Love God with all your mind, heart, and soul, and love you neighbor as yourself. He did not answer with the good samaritan. Really? Who's the one being deceiptful? Who's the one taking a fragment from another passage, introducing it to the Good Samaritan Parable and attempting to use Jesus' words against Jesus' words? This passage is about The Good Samaritan. Why are you trying to divert the focus off of what Jesus answered the Lawyer in the Parable of The Good Samaritan? What He said in this verse is that one must do what the non-Believer Samaritan (that rejects the Jewish Messiah AKA Jesus Christ) did in order for them to inherit eternal life. "That" was the answer to the Lawyers question. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 20:15:32 GMT -5
Read Romans 2 and The Good Samaritan Parable. They say otherwise. Also, Scripture doesn't contradict itself. Therefore, if one finds contradiction in scripture, then it is the person who is wrong (not The Bible). What "exactly" does Jesus say He is the only way? What is the "exact" scripture? Word for word... It is not the bible that contradicts itself, it is you that contradicts the Bible, and yes you are wrong. For the 3rd time, which version of The Holy Bible do you use and you are the one that is mixing up scriptures here. You are attributing quotes to Jesus that aren't in the Parable of The Good Samaritan in order to undo Christ's teaching to the Lawyer. It says what it says. If you cannot debate the text of The Good Samaritan, why are you even bothering with discussing it? This is about the text in The Good Samaritan. Diversion...one of the tactics. But, it doesn't work on me. If what you believe is true, you should be able to prove it within the context of The Good Samaritan Parable. Why can't you? Why can't you prove that Jesus didn't tell the Lawyer in His answer to him that he was to do what the non-Believer Samaritan did as His response to the question of what one must do to inherit eternal life? |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 7, 2008 20:17:09 GMT -5
Hmm, this seems odd. Have you never read the Gospels? Yes. Tell you what...why don't you cite the exact phrase Jesus said. Post it here and let us examine it together, word for word. |
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