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Post by emily445455 on Jun 8, 2009 17:55:31 GMT -5
Heather, He tells us everything we need to know. And He won't tell us one thing just to do the opposite.
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Post by watchman on Jun 8, 2009 18:00:05 GMT -5
Is every though or every idea that enters the mind a "promise"? Then why do you assume that everything God thinks or wills is a promise? I never said that everything God thinks or says is a promise, many things are conditional. God wills that all men be saved, but He did not promise that all men will be saved, and we know that all men will not be saved. However cepha claims that God can rapture the church pretrib even though Jesus declared that the resurrection of the just followed by the ''rapture' or translation of the living saints would occur at His post tribulational 2nd coming, because God might change his mind. This is not possible, and for cepha to claim it is because all things are possible with God is a false dichotomy, because God will not and indeed cannot go back on what He has already declared. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 8, 2009 18:03:25 GMT -5
Because His word declares it. I really do not know what God you serve. The god of catholicism or some god you have created in your own mind, but my God is the God of the Bible and My God stands by what He has said whether it is a promise of good or a declaration of destruction. EEEk. There is only one God period. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. If you detest the Catholic Church so much, why do you keep coming back here? I think it's cute. You are right there is only one God but there are many gods. cepha is not describing God, so I can only assume he is referring to some other god. |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 8, 2009 18:04:57 GMT -5
OK, Im Heather, not Steven. Teresa....so  |
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Post by alfie on Jun 9, 2009 0:03:32 GMT -5
Epharaem the Syrian who said in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 9, 2009 9:51:13 GMT -5
Ok. so what?
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Post by Ramon on Jun 9, 2009 9:54:08 GMT -5
Epharaem the Syrian who said in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." I hate when people take the Father's writings out of context. I hate when people bare false witness against the Holy Fathers of the Church.  First, Saint Ephraem the Syrian (a Canonized Saint and Holy Father of the Orthodox Church) did not write this! It has already been proven that Pusedo-Ephrem wrote this, not this fourth century Saint. IT WAS NOT EVEN WRITTEN IN THE FOURTH CENTURY. AT BEST IT MAY HAVE BEEN WRITTEN IN THE SEVENTH CENTURY The source document (which you did not even have the curiosity of posted) of this quote has been challenged for authenticity and is known and labeled as written by Pseudo-Ephraim. There is a lot of unsureness of the document and its author. Scholars and Historians have concluded this, not me. Second, the above figure mentioned absolutely NOTHING about the alleged events taking place BEFORE the Tribulation. We don't need to debunk the validity of the quote, but rather point out that it says nothing about it happening before the Tribulation, nor any of the other deceptions that accompany the pretribulational rapture heresy. Third, it wrong to take one obscure passage and then claim it teach Pre-Trib Rapture, when the Early Church did not! Fourth, did Pseudo-Ephraem believe in Pre-Trib Rapture? NO www.velocity.net/~edju/Pretrib2.htmwww.tribwatch.com/davemac.htmwww.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/post/link7.htmAt first, it seems the correct answer is "Yes", but this will take the quote out of context and not compare to other Pseudo-Ephraem statements. Bob Gundry wrote a 27 pages refuting this quote as supporting a Pretib doctrine in his book, "First The Antichrist." He gives very convincing evidence that this passage has been taken out of its context and misapplied. There had been a very good extensive work done online disproving the claim that Pseudo-Ephraem believed in the Pre-Trib Rapture, unfortunately, it is no longer hosted online In conclusion, Pseudo-Ephraem did not believe in the Pre-Trib. No Early Church Father did. It is a 200 years old invention not supported by Scriptures. Shame on you for trying to deceive us! In IC.XC, Ramon P.S, Just a casual reading of the some of the surviving works of the real Saint Ephraem (which Pseudo-Ephraem is undoubtedly building on) will show that he was clearly a post-tribulationist. Go figure! Read his writings Alfie and be enlighten. |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 9, 2009 9:56:36 GMT -5
Rock on Ramon!
I have to be a little brash here.
I think this "pre-trib" rapture thing is along the same spirit as when St. Peter said "No Lord, this shall never happen to you"
But it's a little different, like "No Lord, this(tribulation) shall never happen to the Church"
Suffering is not fun, but if you want to take up your cross and follow Jesus, it is a requirement. The Church follows Jesus completely. The Church suffers now and will continue to suffer until God makes all things new--the wedding supper of the Lamb.
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Post by watchman on Jun 9, 2009 10:59:04 GMT -5
I agree Teresa, Pretribbers are desiring the things of man not the things of God.
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Post by Ramon on Jun 9, 2009 11:10:11 GMT -5
Rock on Ramon! I have to be a little brash here. I think this "pre-trib" rapture thing is along the same spirit as when St. Peter said "No Lord, this shall never happen to you" But it's a little different, like "No Lord, this(tribulation) shall never happen to the Church" Suffering is not fun, but if you want to take up your cross and follow Jesus, it is a requirement. The Church follows Jesus completely. The Church suffers now and will continue to suffer until God makes all things new--the wedding supper of the Lamb. I agree with you. Pre-Tribulation rapture theory is just a way to escape martyrdom and persecution. But Christ and the Holy Apostles told us that we must endure persecution. If we do not endure to the end, we will forfeit our salvation. In Christ "Priestly Prayer" (i.e., John 17), he told His Father not to take his disciples out of the world, but rather that He may give them the strength to endure tribulation/persecution. There is nothing in Scriptures which supports this man-made doctrine of Pre-Trib Rapture. Alfie keeps ignoring the fact that Christ' parable of the Wheat and the Tares place the Rapture Post-Tribulation! In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 9, 2009 11:15:01 GMT -5
He knew we would sin, that is why He planned our redemption before He even created us. How do you know he knew? |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 9, 2009 11:17:25 GMT -5
How do you know He will not change His mind? Because His word declares it. Really? Chapter and verse please? So when He condemned mankind to death, He meant it forever? Then, there is no salvation with God according to you (if it "is" the God of Scripture). According to you, God doesn't change His mind, so there is no salvation. Nothing after Genesis 1 matters. That is "if" God didn't change His mind and redeem us. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 9, 2009 11:22:07 GMT -5
Because His word declares it. I really do not know what God you serve. The god of catholicism or some god you have created in your own mind, but my God is the God of the Bible and My God stands by what He has said whether it is a promise of good or a declaration of destruction. EEEk. There is only one God period. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. If you detest the Catholic Church so much, why do you keep coming back here? I think it's cute. Because no one else will tolerate him. He's actually been banned from more sites than me! LOL! |
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Post by watchman on Jun 9, 2009 11:23:25 GMT -5
He knew we would sin, that is why He planned our redemption before He even created us. How do you know he knew? Because God is omniscient. Do you dare now deny this? |
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Post by watchman on Jun 9, 2009 11:27:50 GMT -5
EEEk. There is only one God period. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. If you detest the Catholic Church so much, why do you keep coming back here? I think it's cute. Because no one else will tolerate him. He's actually been banned from more sites than me! LOL! LOL, this made my laugh, itis not the catholic church I detest it is cepha...j/k um not really...yeah j/k  |
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Post by watchman on Jun 9, 2009 11:29:49 GMT -5
So when He condemned mankind to death, He meant it forever? Then, there is no salvation with God according to you (if it "is" the God of Scripture). According to you, God doesn't change His mind, so there is no salvation. Nothing after Genesis 1 matters. That is "if" God didn't change His mind and redeem us. Nope |
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Post by Ramon on Jun 9, 2009 11:43:42 GMT -5
According to the Navarre Bible, a highly respected Catholic Commentary, some believe the restrainer is Saint Michael the Archangel. Granted, it is not doctrine in the Roman Church (as far as I know the Catholic Church has not proclaim any interpretation concerning the Restrainer), but it is a held opinion within the Roman Church. I believe this interpretation is a better interpretation given the facts I wrote earlier. In IC.XC, Ramon Thank you for clearing that up Ramon...oh! And THANK YOU for defending me on Christian Forums when I was being slandered over there! You are a true friend and despite our 3% differences in doctrinal beliefs, I'd commune with you anyday bro! ;D Thank-you Cepha. You are true friend as well! I have a very few friends online, but I can honesty say, with all my heart, that you are truly my friend and it will be a pleasure to one day meet you in person. And you welcome. Many at Christian forums are just plain....well....jerks! I usually do not hang out there. I just stay at times at my corner (The Ancient Way-Eastern Orthodox) and post there. At times I do post in other forums, but many, especially in General Theology, are rude and disrespect. You can't even have a debate over there without someone calling you names and being very disrespectful. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by watchman on Jun 9, 2009 11:45:56 GMT -5
Because His word declares it. Really? Chapter and verse please? God does not change, Jesus (who is God) does not change, His mind does not change, His word will not change nor pass away. Once God has declared a thing it will be done. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 9, 2009 11:50:33 GMT -5
Really? Chapter and verse please? God does not change, Jesus (who is God) does not change, His mind does not change, His word will not change nor pass away. Once God has declared a thing it will be done. None of that states that God does not change His mind. But, scripture shows that God changed His mind. First, He condemned mankind. Then, He redeemed it. That is undeniable. About His word not passing away, that has nothing to do with Him changing His mind. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 9, 2009 11:54:58 GMT -5
Is every though or every idea that enters the mind a "promise"? Then why do you assume that everything God thinks or wills is a promise? I never said that everything God thinks or says is a promise, many things are conditional. God wills that all men be saved, but He did not promise that all men will be saved, and we know that all men will not be saved. However cepha claims that God can rapture the church pretrib even though Jesus declared that the resurrection of the just followed by the ''rapture' or translation of the living saints would occur at His post tribulational 2nd coming, because God might change his mind. This is not possible, and for cepha to claim it is because all things are possible with God is a false dichotomy, because God will not and indeed cannot go back on what He has already declared. Calvinist. And if God cannot go back on what He declared, how is it that mankind now will "not" be condenmed to eternal death? |
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