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Post by watchman on Jun 9, 2009 11:55:33 GMT -5
He knew we would sin, that is why He planned our redemption before He even created us. How do you know he knew?  This is absurd. Do you really think anything takes God off guard or by surprise? He knew every thought you would ever think before you were born much less whether or not Adam would sin. Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
1st Peter 1
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.God had the planned of redemption since before He ever created the Earth. This prove 2 thing #1 He knew we would need redemption, ie.. Adam would sin. #2 He didn't change His mind it was His plan all along. |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 9, 2009 11:57:40 GMT -5
Yes, but He hasn't "declared" everything He has ever thought or planned!!
Do you think that everything God is, was or will be, every plan, every thought of God is all contained in the Bible?!
We aren't saying He breaks His promises, but not everything God does is a promise, and certainly God thinks many things that He has never revealved to us!
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Post by watchman on Jun 9, 2009 11:58:13 GMT -5
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.God does not change, Jesus (who is God) does not change, His mind does not change, His word will not change nor pass away. Once God has declared a thing it will be done. None of that states that God does not change His mind. But, scripture shows that God changed His mind. First, He condemned mankind. Then, He redeemed it. That is undeniable. About His word not passing away, that has nothing to do with Him changing His mind. It says that He will not change His mind it say the He does not change at all. The thing is the blind cannot see. So why would I expect you to see |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 9, 2009 11:59:25 GMT -5
EEEk. There is only one God period. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. If you detest the Catholic Church so much, why do you keep coming back here? I think it's cute. You are right there is only one God but there are many gods. cepha is not describing God, so I can only assume he is referring to some other god. Not "your" god at least. You are the one who believes that God is limited. The God of The Bible is omnipotent and nothing is impossible for God. As opposed to your false belief that God has limitations.  |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 9, 2009 11:59:34 GMT -5
Joey, good observation my friend.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 9, 2009 12:01:38 GMT -5
How do you know he knew? This is absurd. Do you really think anything takes God off guard or by surprise? He knew every thought you would ever think before you were born much less whether or not Adam would sin. Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
1st Peter 1
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.God had the planned of redemption since before He ever created the Earth. This prove 2 thing #1 He knew we would need redemption, ie.. Adam would sin. #2 He didn't change His mind it was His plan all along. What you are suggesting is Calvinism. Aren't you against Predestination? And the question remains...how do you know he knew? None of those scriptures literally say that God knew man would fall from grace. Not one. And, where is the scriptural proof that God "planned" the fall of man? |
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Post by watchman on Jun 9, 2009 12:02:00 GMT -5
I never said that everything God thinks or says is a promise, many things are conditional. God wills that all men be saved, but He did not promise that all men will be saved, and we know that all men will not be saved. However cepha claims that God can rapture the church pretrib even though Jesus declared that the resurrection of the just followed by the ''rapture' or translation of the living saints would occur at His post tribulational 2nd coming, because God might change his mind. This is not possible, and for cepha to claim it is because all things are possible with God is a false dichotomy, because God will not and indeed cannot go back on what He has already declared. Calvinist. And if God cannot go back on what He declared, how is it that mankind now will "not" be condenmed to eternal death? Calvinist is an odd thing to say for no reason at all? Now to your question. because He planned our redemption before Adam sinned. He need not change His mind to redeem us, it was always His plan to redeem us. Sometime i truly believe you just bait with questions you know the answer to to aggravate me. I just do not believe you are as clueless as you act. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 9, 2009 12:03:14 GMT -5
Yes, but He hasn't "declared" everything He has ever thought or planned!! Do you think that everything God is, was or will be, every plan, every thought of God is all contained in the Bible?! We aren't saying He breaks His promises, but not everything God does is a promise, and certainly God thinks many things that He has never revealved to us! I believe He has declared the timing of the rapture as relationship to the tribulation, and that He is not going to change His mind making His word void. |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 9, 2009 12:03:33 GMT -5
The Bible says He has changed His mind (or His plan) because of the actions of people.
Examples: Destruction of Ninevah,
Destruction of Lot's family (originally, He was going to destroy ALL of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah)
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 9, 2009 12:05:58 GMT -5
Jeremiah 26
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Post by watchman on Jun 9, 2009 12:07:36 GMT -5
You are right there is only one God but there are many gods. cepha is not describing God, so I can only assume he is referring to some other god. Not "your" god at least. You are the one who believes that God is limited. The God of The Bible is omnipotent and nothing is impossible for God. As opposed to your false belief that God has limitations. This is as I said a false dichotomy. God cannot lie, therefore He has limited Himself to keeping His word, that we may have surety in out salvation. Hebrews6
16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: So the Bible say nothing is impossible for God and it also say it is impossible for God to lie, so which one is it is the bible wrong or are you. God will not indeed cannot lie. If you claim believe God will keep His word is limiting Him from lying then so be it. |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 9, 2009 12:08:05 GMT -5
1Now the word of the LORD came to Jonah the second time, saying, 2"Arise, go to Nineveh the great city and proclaim to it the proclamation which I am going to tell you." 3So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three days' walk.
4Then Jonah began to go through the city one day's walk; and he cried out and said, "Yet forty days and Nineveh will be overthrown."
5Then the people of Nineveh believed in God; and they called a fast and put on sackcloth from the greatest to the least of them.
6When the word reached the king of Nineveh, he arose from his throne, laid aside his robe from him, covered himself with sackcloth and sat on the ashes.
7He issued a proclamation and it said, "In Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles: Do not let man, beast, herd, or flock taste a thing. Do not let them eat or drink water.
8"But both man and beast must be covered with sackcloth; and let men call on God earnestly that each may turn from his wicked way and from the violence which is in his hands.
9"Who knows, God may turn and relent and withdraw His burning anger so that we will not perish."
10When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.
Jonah 3 |
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Post by watchman on Jun 9, 2009 12:10:46 GMT -5
This is absurd. Do you really think anything takes God off guard or by surprise? He knew every thought you would ever think before you were born much less whether or not Adam would sin. Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
1st Peter 1
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.God had the planned of redemption since before He ever created the Earth. This prove 2 thing #1 He knew we would need redemption, ie.. Adam would sin. #2 He didn't change His mind it was His plan all along. What you are suggesting is Calvinism. Aren't you against Predestination? I am against predestination, however believing the Bible when it says that the plan of salvation was already planned for us before the creation of the earth in no way suggest that man has been relieved of his free will. You are twisting two beliefs in one because you understand neither. |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 9, 2009 12:12:33 GMT -5
What about the verse I posted from Jeremiah?
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Post by watchman on Jun 9, 2009 12:13:03 GMT -5
The Bible says He has changed His mind (or His plan) because of the actions of people. Examples: Destruction of Ninevah, Destruction of Lot's family (originally, He was going to destroy ALL of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah) You are wrong on both accounts it was God's plan all along to spare Ninevah, and Lot's family, not a change of mind. |
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Post by watchman on Jun 9, 2009 12:15:48 GMT -5
God knew everything that would happen in the earth before He created nothing has cause Him to change His mind or nature. God exist outside of time. He is in the past, present and future all at once. We are bound by time God is not. He knows everything that has happened or will happen, there is no need for His mind to change.
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 9, 2009 12:16:39 GMT -5
So, then what about the verse in JEREMIAH that literally says:
13"Now therefore amend your ways and your deeds and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will change His mind about the misfortune which He has pronounced against you.
Was Jeremiah smoking crack then?
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Post by watchman on Jun 9, 2009 12:17:36 GMT -5
And the question remains...how do you know he knew? None of those scriptures literally say that God knew man would fall from grace. Not one. And, where is the scriptural proof that God "planned" the fall of man? If you are trying to disprove Bible alone you can do it without making yourself out to be against the immutability of God. |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 9, 2009 12:20:05 GMT -5
Verse in Jeremiah? Is everyone ignoring me cause they have no answer to that verse?
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Post by watchman on Jun 9, 2009 12:20:31 GMT -5
So, then what about the verse in JEREMIAH that literally says: 13"Now therefore amend your ways and your deeds and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will change His mind about the misfortune which He has pronounced against you. Was Jeremiah smoking crack then? You see God knew whether or not they would amend their way so ?he already knew whether or not He was going to inforce or hold back their misfortune, He need not change His mind. God knows everything and is immutable. This is the fact of God nature and you are arguing against the very immutability of God's nature that is not a good thing to do. |
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