|
|
Post by teresahrc on Jun 9, 2009 12:24:17 GMT -5
Hey, I wasn't arguing that God does anything wrong. He doesn't. But you said God doesn't change His mind (changing your mind is not evil)
This verse in Jeremiah, CLEARLY says that the LORD would change His mind if people amend their deeds.
You are the one saying that this verse is not true, not me!
|
|
|
|
Post by watchman on Jun 9, 2009 12:31:14 GMT -5
Hey, I wasn't arguing that God does anything wrong. He doesn't. But you said God doesn't change His mind (changing your mind is not evil) This verse in Jeremiah, CLEARLY says that the LORD would change His mind if people amend their deeds. You are the one saying that this verse is not true, not me! What cepha is arguing is that even though scripture states the rapture/translation of the living saints, is at the post trib 2nd coming, God could chose to do it before the tribulation if He changes His mind. This is absolutely not true. When God has declared something will come to pass it will come to pass and it will come to pass exactly as God has declared it. If you want to defend His heresy because you are his friend go right ahead. But what will your answer be to God when He asked you why you questioned His word? Because cepha is my friend, I do not think that will work. |
|
|
|
Post by teresahrc on Jun 9, 2009 12:36:03 GMT -5
I'm not Cepha.
I was trying to show you that God can change His mind (not break His promise) because you seemed to be saying that across the board, no matter what, God doesn't change His mind. I'm not defending any heresy. I'm not questioning His word. Not in the New Testament, not in the old testament, Not in Jeremiah, or any where else.
I guess there were 2 separate debates at the same time, because I don't even know what Cepha was saying to you.
|
|
|
|
Post by watchman on Jun 9, 2009 12:42:31 GMT -5
God told Nevivah If you do not repent I will destroy you, and in Jeremiah if Israel will not repent I will send my scorn upon them ect.... The decision was on the people, but God knew what decision they would make.
This is my point when scripture says a certain event is going to take place it will take place God is not going to change His mind about what He has already stated in His word.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 9, 2009 14:30:45 GMT -5
Epharaem the Syrian who said in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." I hate when people take the Father's writings out of context. I hate when people bare false witness against the Holy Fathers of the Church.  Or, when they just accept "some" of their teachings and ignore the rest.  |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 9, 2009 15:24:34 GMT -5
How do you know he knew?  Because God is omniscient. Do you dare now deny this? He is, but that doesn't mean that He knew that Adam would sin since Adam's sin came "after" he was created. To be omniscient is to know things as they "are". |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 9, 2009 15:34:04 GMT -5
Yes, but He hasn't "declared" everything He has ever thought or planned!! Do you think that everything God is, was or will be, every plan, every thought of God is all contained in the Bible?! We aren't saying He breaks His promises, but not everything God does is a promise, and certainly God thinks many things that He has never revealved to us! LOL! Here's a great question: Can God declare something "undone"? LOL! Scripture only says that what God does, let no "man" undo! But it doesn't say "let God not undo". LOL! |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 9, 2009 15:35:14 GMT -5
None of that states that God does not change His mind. But, scripture shows that God changed His mind. First, He condemned mankind. Then, He redeemed it. That is undeniable. About His word not passing away, that has nothing to do with Him changing His mind. It says that He will not change His mind it say the He does not change at all. The thing is the blind cannot see. So why would I expect you to see Tell you what..."highlight" with the color blue where the scriptures state "He will not change His mind"... And... John 9:41
Jesus said unto them, "If ye were blind,
ye would have no sin:
but now ye say,
We see: your sin remaineth."  |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 9, 2009 15:44:23 GMT -5
Calvinist. And if God cannot go back on what He declared, how is it that mankind now will "not" be condenmed to eternal death? Calvinist is an odd thing to say for no reason at all? Now to your question. because He planned our redemption before Adam sinned. He need not change His mind to redeem us, it was always His plan to redeem us. Sometime i truly believe you just bait with questions you know the answer to to aggravate me. I just do not believe you are as clueless as you act. I called you a Calvinist since you believe in predestination. ;D Predestination is a religious concept, which involves the relationship between God and His creation.
The religious character of predestination distinguishes it from other ideas about determinism and free will.
Those who believe in predestination, such as John Calvin,  believe that before the creation God determined the fate of the universe throughout all of time and space. |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 9, 2009 15:45:38 GMT -5
The Bible says He has changed His mind (or His plan) because of the actions of people. Examples: Destruction of Ninevah, Destruction of Lot's family (originally, He was going to destroy ALL of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah) That's right. Lot negotiated with God and He changed his mind several times. |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 9, 2009 15:49:50 GMT -5
Not "your" god at least. You are the one who believes that God is limited. The God of The Bible is omnipotent and nothing is impossible for God. As opposed to your false belief that God has limitations.  This is as I said a false dichotomy. God cannot lie, therefore He has limited Himself to keeping His word, that we may have surety in out salvation. Hebrews6
16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: So the Bible say nothing is impossible for God and it also say it is impossible for God to lie, so which one is it is the bible wrong or are you. God will not indeed cannot lie. If you claim believe God will keep His word is limiting Him from lying then so be it. Actually, your statement is a false dichotomy. God "does" not lie (not "cannot"). He can do whatever He want's to do. He's God. (Oh...and verse 18? That verse [taken in context] is talking about an oath that came in verse 17...it doesn't say that it is impossible for God to lie PERIOD.) Again, God can do anything He wants to. Question: Who's more powerful? God or a book? |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 9, 2009 15:51:11 GMT -5
What you are suggesting is Calvinism. Aren't you against Predestination? I am against predestination, however believing the Bible when it says that the plan of salvation was already planned for us before the creation of the earth in no way suggest that man has been relieved of his free will. You are twisting two beliefs in one because you understand neither. Oh no...it's clear to me. You just contradicted yourself. According to your personal interpretation of scripture, God predestined everything. ;D |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 9, 2009 15:53:10 GMT -5
God knew everything that would happen in the earth before He created nothing has cause Him to change His mind or nature. God exist outside of time. He is in the past, present and future all at once. We are bound by time God is not. He knows everything that has happened or will happen, there is no need for His mind to change. And that's "not" this? Predestination is a religious concept, which involves the relationship between God and His creation. The religious character of predestination distinguishes it from other ideas about determinism and free will. Those who believe in predestination, such as John Calvin, believe that before the creation God determined the fate of the universe throughout all of time and space. |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 9, 2009 15:54:30 GMT -5
And the question remains...how do you know he knew? None of those scriptures literally say that God knew man would fall from grace. Not one. And, where is the scriptural proof that God "planned" the fall of man? If you are trying to disprove Bible alone you can do it without making yourself out to be against the immutability of God. Does that mean that you are not going to answer the questions? And the question remains...how do you know he knew (man would fall)?
And, where is the scriptural proof that God "planned" the fall of man? |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 9, 2009 15:56:25 GMT -5
Verse in Jeremiah? Is everyone ignoring me cause they have no answer to that verse? Me? I'm just waiting for the answer too! LOL! |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 9, 2009 16:00:35 GMT -5
Hey, I wasn't arguing that God does anything wrong. He doesn't. But you said God doesn't change His mind (changing your mind is not evil) This verse in Jeremiah, CLEARLY says that the LORD would change His mind if people amend their deeds. You are the one saying that this verse is not true, not me! What cepha is arguing is that even though scripture states the rapture/translation of the living saints, is at the post trib 2nd coming, God could chose to do it before the tribulation if He changes His mind. This is absolutely not true. When God has declared something will come to pass it will come to pass and it will come to pass exactly as God has declared it. If you want to defend His heresy because you are his friend go right ahead. But what will your answer be to God when He asked you why you questioned His word? Because cepha is my friend, I do not think that will work. Wow T. That to me sounds like a personal insult to your ability to think freely religiously (just because you disagree with him).  Anyway, anybody who knows God knows God can change His mind if He wants to. No one has posted on scripture that states that "God cannot change His mind if He wants to." Notice that? People just "say it". |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 9, 2009 16:05:32 GMT -5
God told Nevivah If you do not repent I will destroy you, and in Jeremiah if Israel will not repent I will send my scorn upon them ect.... The decision was on the people, but God knew what decision they would make. This is my point when scripture says a certain event is going to take place it will take place God is not going to change His mind about what He has already stated in His word. Sounds like God changed His mind there (unless, you believe that Abraham changed God's mind?): Genesis 18:17-32 17And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
27And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, which am but dust and ashes:
28Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
29And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30And he said unto him, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
31And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake. |
|
|
|
Post by alfie on Jun 9, 2009 16:22:23 GMT -5
Rock on Ramon! I have to be a little brash here. I think this "pre-trib" rapture thing is along the same spirit as when St. Peter said "No Lord, this shall never happen to you" But it's a little different, like "No Lord, this(tribulation) shall never happen to the Church" Suffering is not fun, but if you want to take up your cross and follow Jesus, it is a requirement. The Church follows Jesus completely. The Church suffers now and will continue to suffer until God makes all things new--the wedding supper of the Lamb. I agree with you. Pre-Tribulation rapture theory is just a way to escape martyrdom and persecution. But Christ and the Holy Apostles told us that we must endure persecution. If we do not endure to the end, we will forfeit our salvation. In Christ "Priestly Prayer" (i.e., John 17), he told His Father not to take his disciples out of the world, but rather that He may give them the strength to endure tribulation/persecution. There is nothing in Scriptures which supports this man-made doctrine of Pre-Trib Rapture. Alfie keeps ignoring the fact that Christ' parable of the Wheat and the Tares place the Rapture Post-Tribulation! In IC.XC, Ramon You guys talk smack. 1. I never met a Catholic or Orthodox yet who didn't boast about how they would choose martyrdom. Do you realize how asinine you all sound? Especially Heather, but then she is an artist and artists tend to be overly dramatic. 2. One other thing when the rapture does occur and you are left behind for martyrdom (which is your only option now to make it to Glory) it means you weren't really Christians after all. You need to ponder that point. Post-tribulationists need to ask, Why was Paul petitioning the Lord to come if He couldn’t come until after the Tribulation? According to James 5:9, Christians should be careful not to complain against each other, because "Jesus the judge is standing right at the door" and could come at any moment. These and other passages reveal that Paul, the other apostles, and the early Christians all believed that Christ could come back at any moment. This shows that the Rapture must be a separate event from the Second Coming of Christ, which has definite signs that must take place before it can occur. |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Jun 9, 2009 17:07:24 GMT -5
I agree with you. Pre-Tribulation rapture theory is just a way to escape martyrdom and persecution. But Christ and the Holy Apostles told us that we must endure persecution. If we do not endure to the end, we will forfeit our salvation. In Christ "Priestly Prayer" (i.e., John 17), he told His Father not to take his disciples out of the world, but rather that He may give them the strength to endure tribulation/persecution. There is nothing in Scriptures which supports this man-made doctrine of Pre-Trib Rapture. Alfie keeps ignoring the fact that Christ' parable of the Wheat and the Tares place the Rapture Post-Tribulation! In IC.XC, Ramon You guys talk smack. 1. I never met a Catholic or Orthodox yet who didn't boast about how they would choose martyrdom. Do you realize how asinine you all sound? Especially Heather, but then she is an artist and artists tend to be overly dramatic. 2. One other thing when the rapture does occur and you are left behind for martyrdom (which is your only option now to make it to Glory) it means you weren't really Christians after all. You need to ponder that point.
LOL!
I'm not worried.
I already sent the pope my money order for $249. and got my magic "Rapture Cloak".
When The Rapture comes, all I have to do is put this magical cloak on and I'll be spared! |
|
|
|
Post by emily445455 on Jun 9, 2009 17:43:08 GMT -5
I look handsom, I look smart! I am a walking work of art! How I love my coat of many colors! How I love my coat of many colors! It was red and violet and peach and mocha and blue!!
|
|
believe that before the creation God determined the fate of the universe throughout all of time and space.