|
|
Post by Cepha on May 8, 2009 11:09:33 GMT -5
If Moses wasn't in Heaven and he wasn't in Hell when he appeared in The Transfirugation with Jesus, where was he?
|
|
|
|
Post by Ramon on May 8, 2009 11:19:49 GMT -5
If Moses wasn't in Heaven and he wasn't in Hell when he appeared in The Transfirugation with Jesus, where was he? Is that a trick question? ;D The most common view is that he, with all the Old Testament Saints, was in Hades, the abode of the dead. According to Jesus (Luke 16:19-31), Hades was a compartment divided between the "Bosom of Abraham" and the side for the doomed. I also remember Saint Jude saying that the Archangel Michael and the Devil was arguing over the body of Moses (a story which came from a pseudepigrapha Assumption of Moses (Jude 9). It could very well be possible that Moses was resurrected and taken to Heaven with God, just like Enoch, Elijah and the Most Holy Virgin, the Theotokos, and came with Elijah in the Holy Transfiguration of Christ in the Gospels. In IC.XC, Ramon |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on May 8, 2009 11:33:30 GMT -5
If Moses wasn't in Heaven and he wasn't in Hell when he appeared in The Transfirugation with Jesus, where was he? Is that a trick question? ;D  So, there are other planes of existance besides just heaven and hell? |
|
|
|
Post by emily445455 on May 8, 2009 11:34:28 GMT -5
My pastor mentioned this breifly, about the Jews who died before Christ died. Um...the bussom of someone...Abraham? IDK, I forget what he said.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ramon on May 8, 2009 11:38:48 GMT -5
So, there are other planes of existance besides just heaven and hell? Yes. Hades is seen by some Orthodox as the abode of the dead, and all those died enter into it, either going to Abraham Bosom or the "place of doomed" awaiting resurrection and final judgment. In IC.XC, Ramon |
|
|
|
Post by teresahrc on May 8, 2009 11:58:37 GMT -5
I think Moses was physically assumed into heaven. There is a really interesting verse(in addition to the one in Jude);
5So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
6And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
Also, I think that Moses is similar to the other two mentioned in the Bible that were assumed--Enoch and Elijah. Enoch walked with God. Elijah talked to God, saw God and performed miracles. Moses spoke to God "as a friend" and God said that the Messiah to come would be "like" Moses.
peace
teresa
|
|
|
|
Post by watchman on May 8, 2009 12:28:58 GMT -5
So, there are other planes of existance besides just heaven and hell? Yes. Hades is seen by some Orthodox as the abode of the dead, and all those died enter into it, either going to Abraham Bosom or the "place of doomed" awaiting resurrection and final judgment. In IC.XC, Ramon Abraham Bosom is a paradise not a place of doom. Read Luke 16. |
|
|
|
Post by watchman on May 8, 2009 12:29:45 GMT -5
If Moses wasn't in Heaven and he wasn't in Hell when he appeared in The Transfirugation with Jesus, where was he? Is that a trick question? ;D The most common view is that he, with all the Old Testament Saints, was in Hades, the abode of the dead. According to Jesus (Luke 16:19-31), Hades was a compartment divided between the "Bosom of Abraham" and the side for the doomed. I agree with this... Ignore my last post. |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on May 8, 2009 12:29:45 GMT -5
Yes. Hades is seen by some Orthodox as the abode of the dead, and all those died enter into it, either going to Abraham Bosom or the "place of doomed" awaiting resurrection and final judgment. In IC.XC, Ramon Abraham Bosom is a paradise not a place of doom. Read Luke 16. So, you admit that there is a place/state of existance/whatever besides heaven and hell after death? |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on May 8, 2009 12:30:47 GMT -5
[I agree with this... Ignore my last post. LOL! |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on May 8, 2009 12:34:35 GMT -5
I think Moses was physically assumed into heaven. There is a really interesting verse(in addition to the one in Jude); 5So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
6And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. Also, I think that Moses is similar to the other two mentioned in the Bible that were assumed--Enoch and Elijah. Enoch walked with God. Elijah talked to God, saw God and performed miracles. Moses spoke to God "as a friend" and God said that the Messiah to come would be "like" Moses. peace teresa But how did Satan get a hold of his Body when Michael and him fought over it? Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke you. |
|
|
|
Post by Ramon on May 8, 2009 23:21:57 GMT -5
I think Moses was physically assumed into heaven. There is a really interesting verse(in addition to the one in Jude); 5So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. Also, I think that Moses is similar to the other two mentioned in the Bible that were assumed--Enoch and Elijah. Enoch walked with God. Elijah talked to God, saw God and performed miracles. Moses spoke to God "as a friend" and God said that the Messiah to come would be "like" Moses. peace teresa But how did Satan get a hold of his Body when Michael and him fought over it? Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke you. The text doesn't say the Devil had the body of Moses, but only that the Archangel Michael and the Devil was arguing over the body of Moses. It seem that the Devil wanted the Body of Moses for some diabolical reasons. It is a very interested story not found in the OT but in a non canonical book. It seems many Orthodox believe Moses, at some point, was resurrected like the Theotokos. I am leaning to this opinion. In IC.XC, Ramon |
|
|
|
Post by watchman on May 9, 2009 2:41:04 GMT -5
Abraham Bosom is a paradise not a place of doom. Read Luke 16. So, you admit that there is a place/state of existance/whatever besides heaven and hell after death? Yes, I have never denied it, it is where the O.T. saints went to await the Messiah and the cleansing of their sins so that they could get into Heaven. It was called Abraham's bosom'' or paradise. We have had this discussion before. |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on May 9, 2009 10:35:30 GMT -5
But how did Satan get a hold of his Body when Michael and him fought over it? Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke you. The text doesn't say the Devil had the body of Moses, but only that the Archangel Michael and the Devil was arguing over the body of Moses. It seem that the Devil wanted the Body of Moses for some diabolical reasons. It is a very interested story not found in the OT but in a non canonical book. It seems many Orthodox believe Moses, at some point, was resurrected like the Theotokos. I am leaning to this opinion. In IC.XC, Ramon That depends on which text you read. Most seem to say that they were arguing "over" the body (possesion of it). To figure that one out, let's take the obvious first: Moses was dead. The OT states that he died. Maybe, it was at this moment when Michael came for Moses body. Think about it, if Michael had the body (i.e. God had possesion of it), there is no way that Satan could ever claim it, but Michael could take the body from Satan (who could have possesion of it since he is the ruler of the underworld). There is no debating or arguing over Michael having to get the body unless Satan made the argument that Moses wasn't saved and he wasn't assumpted so his dead body belonged to hell (or to Satan's realm). Michael then was sent down there to retrieve it. I personally believe that God retrieved Moses body after death and before Jesus died on the cross and ressurected Moses after he had payed for whatever sin he was responsible for.  |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on May 9, 2009 10:37:05 GMT -5
So, you admit that there is a place/state of existance/whatever besides heaven and hell after death? Yes, I have never denied it, it is where the O.T. saints went to await the Messiah and the cleansing of their sins so that they could get into Heaven. It was called Abraham's bosom'' or paradise. We have had this discussion before. Purgatory.  |
|
|
|
Post by Ramon on May 9, 2009 11:01:54 GMT -5
That depends on which text you read. Most seem to say that they were arguing "over" the body (possesion of it). To figure that one out, let's take the obvious first: Moses was dead. The OT states that he died. Yes, I agree Moses died. Maybe, it was at this moment when Michael came for Moses body. Think about it, if Michael had the body (i.e. God had possesion of it), there is no way that Satan could ever claim it, but Michael could take the body from Satan (who could have possesion of it since he is the ruler of the underworld). There is no debating or arguing over Michael having to get the body unless Satan made the argument that Moses wasn't saved and he wasn't assumpted so his dead body belonged to hell (or to Satan's realm). Michael then was sent down there to retrieve it. I personally believe that God retrieved Moses body after death and before Jesus died on the cross and ressurected Moses after he had payed for whatever sin he was responsible for. That's interesting. That is possible. However, if the Archangel Michael and the Devil was arguing over the body, could it not very well be possible that the Devil wanted his body but the Archangel Michael was arguing that he can't have his body and that he was resurrected and taken to heaven? Both are possible. The Devil probably wanted to claim Moses' Body for is the "lord of the air" and for some diabolical reason (probably to make it a Idol for the Jews)..... I believe that Moses, like the Theotokos, at some point was resurrected and was assumed to heaven. If we take the Transfiguration in a spiritual manner, then Moses could represent all those who will be resurrected at the end of age. Just my thought..... ;D In IC.XC, Ramon |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on May 9, 2009 11:52:44 GMT -5
However, if the Archangel Michael and the Devil was arguing over the body, could it not very well be possible that the Devil wanted his body but the Archangel Michael was arguing that he can't have his body and that he was resurrected and taken to heaven? Both are possible. Here's why I see your scenario as impossible...the body belonged to God. God created it. The Devil couldn't demand anything that belonged to God. However, because there is no reference of time to this event, we can reasonably assume that it happened upon Moses immediate death and this was one body that God wasn't going to allow Satan to have until Jesus died on the cross. Maybe, just maybe, God still had use for Moses and Moses' sins weren't so bad that they warranted long term punishment (when you look at his life's work, it is reasonable to believe that Moses might have died, but spared Purgatory). Remember when Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene? His body was missing but His Spirit was a live. Therefore, His body was elsewhere. Nevertheless, even He, Jesus, had to go to Heaven "first" before He got His body back. Now, Moses could've been in this state as well...spiritually alive, but bodyless. However, supposedly, we are all supposed to be reconciled to our physical bodies in Heaven, right? So maybe, he (Moses) was in that "in between stage" as was Jesus Christ. |
|
|
|
Post by Ramon on May 9, 2009 12:39:05 GMT -5
Here's why I see your scenario as impossible...the body belonged to God. God created it. The Devil couldn't demand anything that belonged to God. True, but doesn't Scriptures say the Devil is the god of this world? 2Corinthians 4:4 "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. " He is also called Prince of this world (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11) and Prince of the power of the air (Ephesians 2:2) God has given Satan some authority and dominion on this world only for a short time (and certainty with limitation). It will make perfect sense for Satan to argue that Moses' Body was his because he will argue that he is "lord of matter". Andreas of Caesarea relates a vision of Blessed Anthony that describes this (Catena, as related in Ancient Christian Commentary: XI). Also we are talking about the Devil here. Would he really care what God thinks?  Remember when Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene? His body was missing but His Spirit was a live. Therefore, His body was elsewhere. Nevertheless, even He, Jesus, had to go to Heaven "first" before He got His body back. Now, Moses could've been in this state as well...spiritually alive, but bodyless. However, supposedly, we are all supposed to be reconciled to our physical bodies in Heaven, right? So maybe, he (Moses) was in that "in between stage" as was Jesus Christ. Yes, that is possible, but I just believe he was resurrected some point after his death, and this story of Saint Jude happened some time after his resurrection. I know Saint Clement of Alexandria believed this (that he was assumed into heaven at some point, cf. Adumbrations, as given in the Ancient Christian Commentary: XI), not a dogmatic teaching in the Church but certainty a pious opinion. In IC.XC, Ramon |
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on May 9, 2009 13:16:31 GMT -5
Here's why I see your scenario as impossible...the body belonged to God. God created it. The Devil couldn't demand anything that belonged to God. True, but doesn't Scriptures say the Devil is the god of this world? 2Corinthians 4:4 "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. " He is also called Prince of this world (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11) and Prince of the power of the air (Ephesians 2:2) God has given Satan some authority and dominion on this world only for a short time (and certainty with limitation). It will make perfect sense for Satan to argue that Moses' Body was his because he will argue that he is "lord of matter". Andreas of Caesarea relates a vision of Blessed Anthony that describes this (Catena, as related in Ancient Christian Commentary: XI). Also we are talking about the Devil here. Would he really care what God thinks? Remember when Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene? His body was missing but His Spirit was a live. Therefore, His body was elsewhere. Nevertheless, even He, Jesus, had to go to Heaven "first" before He got His body back. Now, Moses could've been in this state as well...spiritually alive, but bodyless. However, supposedly, we are all supposed to be reconciled to our physical bodies in Heaven, right? So maybe, he (Moses) was in that "in between stage" as was Jesus Christ. Yes, that is possible, but I just believe he was resurrected some point after his death, and this story of Saint Jude happened some time after his resurrection. I know Saint Clement of Alexandria believed this (that he was assumed into heaven at some point, cf. Adumbrations, as given in the Ancient Christian Commentary: XI), not a dogmatic teaching in the Church but certainty a pious opinion. In IC.XC, Ramon ;D Of course he was ressurected, but..."where" was he until then? LOL! |
|
|
|
Post by Ramon on May 9, 2009 13:18:12 GMT -5
True, but doesn't Scriptures say the Devil is the god of this world? 2Corinthians 4:4 "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. " He is also called Prince of this world (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11) and Prince of the power of the air (Ephesians 2:2) God has given Satan some authority and dominion on this world only for a short time (and certainty with limitation). It will make perfect sense for Satan to argue that Moses' Body was his because he will argue that he is "lord of matter". Andreas of Caesarea relates a vision of Blessed Anthony that describes this (Catena, as related in Ancient Christian Commentary: XI). Also we are talking about the Devil here. Would he really care what God thinks? Yes, that is possible, but I just believe he was resurrected some point after his death, and this story of Saint Jude happened some time after his resurrection. I know Saint Clement of Alexandria believed this (that he was assumed into heaven at some point, cf. Adumbrations, as given in the Ancient Christian Commentary: XI), not a dogmatic teaching in the Church but certainty a pious opinion. In IC.XC, Ramon ;D Of course he was ressurected, but..."where" was he until then? LOL! LOL! (silly me!) Yea...he was in Hades, in Abraham Bosom, with the rest of the souls of the Saints, but at some point prior to the Transfiguration, he was resurrected and assumed into heaven. ;D |
|
