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Post by teresahrc on May 20, 2009 14:29:02 GMT -5
Hum...isn't the belly of the earth just about the lowest you can go? How then did the rich man "look up" and see Abraham "far away"?
Maybe "Abraham's Bosom" wasn't directly in the presence of God (what Catholics call the Beautific vision) but it was definitely NOT in the belly of the earth, nor in prison, unless you totally change the meaning of all of those words.
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Post by watchman on May 20, 2009 20:34:56 GMT -5
Sorry but I came to my conclusion on my own, and ask my pastor today what he though and his opinion was in agreement with mine i respect him very much, and since we came to the same conclusion separately. I am confidant we are correct. You can believe as you wish, and so will I
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Post by teresahrc on May 20, 2009 22:31:52 GMT -5
Interesting.
But I do agree that this issue isn't something that we must "figure out".
It was fun debating it with you though watchman.
peace
teresa
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Post by alfie on May 25, 2009 14:48:21 GMT -5
Abrahams Bosom is now Heaven.
The rich man was not in hell. The Bible clearly states that no one is in hell today. Revelation 20:14 says someday, hades will be thrown into hell. But as yet that has not happened.
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Post by alfie on May 25, 2009 15:00:26 GMT -5
Hum...isn't the belly of the earth just about the lowest you can go? How then did the rich man "look up" and see Abraham "far away"? Maybe "Abraham's Bosom" wasn't directly in the presence of God (what Catholics call the Beautific vision) but it was definitely NOT in the belly of the earth, nor in prison, unless you totally change the meaning of all of those words. It doesn't say the rich man looked up, it says he lifted his eyes which could just mean he opened his eyes. It just says the rich man saw Lazarus afar off. It doesn't say Lazarus was above him. |
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Post by alfie on May 25, 2009 15:35:47 GMT -5
Watchman, You do believe in the Holy Trinity, right? Did not Jesus say "I and the Father are one"? Ok, so why is it hard to accept that Jesus told the man on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise" and yet He Himself descended to Hell(Prison). God is One God, not 3 separate gods. Look up references for the word "prison" in scripture. You will never see it described as being even close to something good. When Jesus talked about Lazarus and the rich man, Lazarus was not the one in "prison". Did Jesus suffer only physically? No, He suffered in mind, body and spirit. He experienced physical death for us and spiritual death for us. I agree with Watchman the thief on the cross went to paradise which is the same as Abraham's Bosom and then after 40 days Abrahams Bosom moved to Heaven. |
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Post by alfie on May 25, 2009 15:50:04 GMT -5
Hum...isn't the belly of the earth just about the lowest you can go? How then did the rich man "look up" and see Abraham "far away"? Maybe "Abraham's Bosom" wasn't directly in the presence of God (what Catholics call the Beautific vision) but it was definitely NOT in the belly of the earth, nor in prison, unless you totally change the meaning of all of those words. Looking at Matthew 16:26 it says and besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us. Look at the word gulf. Gulf would imply that there were two compartments in hades beacause gulf is defined as a large gap or break in the progress or continuity of something. Plus the word continuity means connection, so they are connected to each other. |
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Post by teresahrc on May 25, 2009 22:26:16 GMT -5
Yeah, exactly.
That's why Jesus didn't go to both "paradise" and "prison" after He died.
Why are you all trying to prove something that isn't explicity written in the Bible anyway? Doesn't that go against "Sola scriptura"?
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Post by teresahrc on May 25, 2009 22:29:28 GMT -5
Where does the Bible say this? Verse please...
Well, if he wasn't in heaven, and he wasn't in hell....
Then basically you are saying that there is a place that is not heaven or hell?
Catholics don't even believe that because we believe Purgatory is part of heaven.
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Post by watchman on May 25, 2009 23:37:53 GMT -5
Where does the Bible say this? Verse please... Well, if he wasn't in heaven, and he wasn't in hell.... Then basically you are saying that there is a place that is not heaven or hell? Catholics don't even believe that because we believe Purgatory is part of heaven. Alfie misunderstand Revelation 20 when it says that Hell is cast into the lake of fire. She believe Hell is not Hell the lake of fire is. However there are people in Hell now and they along with Hell itself will be cast into the lake of fire at the White Throne Judgment. |
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Post by teresahrc on May 26, 2009 0:08:13 GMT -5
Ok.
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Post by alfie on May 26, 2009 11:10:40 GMT -5
Where does the Bible say this? Verse please... Well, if he wasn't in heaven, and he wasn't in hell.... Then basically you are saying that there is a place that is not heaven or hell? Catholics don't even believe that because we believe Purgatory is part of heaven. Alfie misunderstand Revelation 20 when it says that Hell is cast into the lake of fire. She believe Hell is not Hell the lake of fire is. However there are people in Hell now and they along with Hell itself will be cast into the lake of fire at the White Throne Judgment. No, people go to Hades where they await the White Throne Judgement, then they are thrown into Hell. Hades is discribed as a dark shadowy place... not fire. And why would God yank people out of Hell for judgement when they are already there? |
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Post by alfie on May 26, 2009 11:22:32 GMT -5
Yeah, exactly. That's why Jesus didn't go to both "paradise" and "prison" after He died. Exactly! I think the Diadiche says Jesus went to Hell, which makes no sense. There would be no reason for Jesus to go to either Hell or Hades because it's too late for these people anyway. |
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Post by watchman on May 26, 2009 11:37:10 GMT -5
Yeah, exactly. That's why Jesus didn't go to both "paradise" and "prison" after He died. Exactly! I think the Diadiche says Jesus went to Hell, which makes no sense. There would be no reason for Jesus to go to either Hell or Hades because it's too late for these people anyway. I agree with you alfie that Jesus did not go to hell, so explain to me what was the prison that Jesus went to when He died. 1st Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; |
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Post by alfie on May 26, 2009 11:57:14 GMT -5
Yes you misunderstood. Abraham's Bosom was the paradise that Jesus went to, however it was a type of prison as well, seeing as how they were being held there until the Messiah could cleanse them of all sin. Can you show me that in The Bible? Where this "paradise" is called AB? John 3:13 says No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. Jesus went to Paradise (Abraham's Boson) until he ascended to heaven. |
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Post by alfie on May 26, 2009 12:17:14 GMT -5
Exactly! I think the Diadiche says Jesus went to Hell, which makes no sense. There would be no reason for Jesus to go to either Hell or Hades because it's too late for these people anyway. I agree with you alfie that Jesus did not go to hell, so explain to me what was the prison that Jesus went to when He died. 1st Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Well in Psalm 142:7 it says Bring my soul out of prison. That I may praise your name. The righteous shall surround me. For You shall deal bountifully with me. I think the word prison refers to when Jesus was alive (rather then after he died) and preaching the salvation message to people.The salvation message freed their souls from damnation. Also when you read a verse like 2 Timothy 3:6 it says For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts. We know these women weren't physically taken into captivity. So, I think we are all in prison until we accept the Lord. Hey, but you could be right when you say Abrahams Bosom was a prison because the word prison can be defined as a place or a condition. |
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Post by teresahrc on May 26, 2009 13:18:17 GMT -5
Listen, I know that prison is the same as Hell. You all won't listen to it because it is not literally there in the Bible.
I know that the Church has always taught that, and ALL of the ancient Churches still teach that.
So, since you all don't believe in the authority of the Church anyway, I'm wondering why you are trying to figure this thing out since it can't be "proven" through scripture alone. Aren't you going outside "Sola scriptura" by trying to figure it out?
"Jesus descended to Hell" is not in the Bible.
"The Holy Trinity" is not in the Bible.
"Rapture" is not in the Bible.
etc, etc. So I don't understand how "Bible only" people believe those things. Aren't you "adding" to the Bible?
1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
5. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again. 6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
10. the forgiveness of sins,
11. the resurrection of the body,
12. and the life everlasting.
Amen.
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Post by teresahrc on May 26, 2009 13:23:07 GMT -5
Hum....
Ever think that the Christians who wrote the Didache maybe had some connections that you don't have...like say they personally knew the Apostles?
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Post by Cepha on May 26, 2009 13:34:37 GMT -5
Hum.... Ever think that the Christians who wrote the Didache maybe had some connections that you don't have...like say they personally knew the Apostles? Jesus went to hell? The Bible states that. Eph 4 8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) If when He ascended, He went to Heaven, then when He descended, where did He go? Got an answer? |
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Post by teresahrc on May 26, 2009 13:37:29 GMT -5
They can't give an answer because it goes against "Sola Scriptura".
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