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Post by Cepha on May 14, 2009 13:41:58 GMT -5
  I hope I am misunderstanding this. Are you saying that Jesus died on the cross, went to paradise, and then "Abraham's Bosom" (which you are calling the "prison") as if they are the same thing? Or are you saying Jesus went to two separate places? Jesus did not ascend to the Father until after His death and resurrection. 18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago... (1 Peter 3) He did NOT go to "Paradise" at the moment of His death, nor for the 3 days of His death. He did not go to Paradise until His ascension into Heaven 40 days after His resurrection. So why did He tell the man on the cross, "Today" you will be with me in Paradise? It's not that hard to figure out. Jesus said "I and the Father are One" and also, in Hebrews, it is explained that with God, there is only one day, and that is "Today". There is only one eternal day, and that is the Eternal Sabbath rest of God. Where in the Bible was "Abraham's Bosom" EVER spoken of as a "prison" ? Yikes. teresa Not only that, when he appeared to Mary Magdalene, what did He tell her? Don't touch Him because He had "not" yet ascended to the Father.  |
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Post by watchman on May 14, 2009 20:49:14 GMT -5
I hope I am misunderstanding this. Are you saying that Jesus died on the cross, went to paradise, and then "Abraham's Bosom" (which you are calling the "prison") as if they are the same thing? Or are you saying Jesus went to two separate places? Yes you misunderstood. Abraham's Bosom was the paradise that Jesus went to, however it was a type of prison as well, seeing as how they were being held there until the Messiah could cleanse them of all sin. 1st Peter 3:19 |
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Post by watchman on May 14, 2009 20:52:24 GMT -5
Jesus preached to those who DISOBEYED long ago. If you read the rest of 1 Peter, it makes more sense 18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.So this is distinguishing those that disobeyed from those that obeyed(Noah and his family). Jesus didn't go and preach to those who obeyed (AKA the Old Testament Saints--Abraham, Isaac and Jacob etc) he went and preached to the sinners who were "in the belly of the earth". This does make since However the O.T. saint also had to be cleanse before they could enter Heaven. They too were in the belly of the earth, but not ''Hell'' but in A's.B. |
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Post by Cepha on May 15, 2009 9:31:28 GMT -5
However the O.T. saint also had to be cleanse before they could enter Heaven. They too were in the belly of the earth, but not ''Hell'' but in A's.B. Is it just me? Or does Watchman continue to beat the drum of Purgatory? LOL! Keep it up...you are using the same exact phrases and scriptures that Catholics have used to prove Purgatory! ;D |
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Post by Cepha on May 15, 2009 9:40:22 GMT -5
Teresa, 1 Pet 3:19 doesn't mention Abraham's Bosom at all. So you are right. AB is never referred to as a "prison". That is never literally stated in The Holy Bible. Here is what the entire context of that verse actually is: 1 Pet 3:18-19 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison And Watchman, you're supposed to (out of common courtesy) post the scripture (not just the verse and chapter). People shouldn't have to go and "find" your proofs. You should provide the proofs. Take this example for instance...you claimed something that is not true (that in the Bible "Abraham's Bosom" was spoken of as a "prison"). When the scripture was exposed, no such terminology existed in it. |
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Post by Cepha on May 15, 2009 9:42:48 GMT -5
Yes you misunderstood. Abraham's Bosom was the paradise that Jesus went to, however it was a type of prison as well, seeing as how they were being held there until the Messiah could cleanse them of all sin. Can you show me that in The Bible? Where this "paradise" is called AB? |
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Post by teresahrc on May 15, 2009 13:22:11 GMT -5
Jesus did not go to "paradise" immediately after dying on the cross.
He descended. Where? The depths, the prison, hell, whatever you want to call it.
He did not go to paradise until He ascended into Heaven after His resurrection and appearing to the Apostles, Mary Mother of God, Mary Magdalene and over 500 witnesses.
How can Paradise=Prison?
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Post by watchman on May 16, 2009 22:39:15 GMT -5
Jesus did not go to "paradise" immediately after dying on the cross. He descended. Where? The depths, the prison, hell, whatever you want to call it. He did not go to paradise until He ascended into Heaven after His resurrection and appearing to the Apostles, Mary Mother of God, Mary Magdalene and over 500 witnesses. How can Paradise=Prison? I disagree. I believe that the fact that Jesus told the thief that we was going to be with Him in paradise that very day, and we know as you said that He descended at His death proves that A's.B. was in fact the paradise Jesus was referring to when speaking to the thief on the cross. |
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Post by Cepha on May 17, 2009 12:17:28 GMT -5
Yeah! |
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Post by watchman on May 17, 2009 14:07:29 GMT -5
Easy enough. If you are being held in ''paradise'' awaiting Salvation then it is a prison even though a very good one.
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Post by Cepha on May 17, 2009 14:41:54 GMT -5
Easy enough. If you are being held in ''paradise'' awaiting Salvation then it is a prison even though a very good one. Could you please quote the Chapter and Verse from which this belief spawns? Or is this your own personal belief that you've created from combining scriptures from different books of The Bible?  |
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Post by watchman on May 17, 2009 20:32:26 GMT -5
Easy enough. If you are being held in ''paradise'' awaiting Salvation then it is a prison even though a very good one. Could you please quote the Chapter and Verse from which this belief spawns? Or is this your own personal belief that you've created from combining scriptures from different books of The Bible? So you need to see them again? I have already given these scriptures about 4 or 5 times. Maybe you could just reread the thread? |
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Post by Cepha on May 18, 2009 10:13:33 GMT -5
Could you please quote the Chapter and Verse from which this belief spawns? Or is this your own personal belief that you've created from combining scriptures from different books of The Bible? So you need to see them again? I have already given these scriptures about 4 or 5 times. Maybe you could just reread the thread? You never quoted a scripture that stated that Jesus was in AB post crucifixion. Not one. But that's what you stated, right? |
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Post by teresahrc on May 19, 2009 11:34:31 GMT -5
Watchman,
You do believe in the Holy Trinity, right?
Did not Jesus say "I and the Father are one"?
Ok, so why is it hard to accept that Jesus told the man on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise" and yet He Himself descended to Hell(Prison).
God is One God, not 3 separate gods.
Look up references for the word "prison" in scripture. You will never see it described as being even close to something good. When Jesus talked about Lazarus and the rich man, Lazarus was not the one in "prison".
Did Jesus suffer only physically? No, He suffered in mind, body and spirit. He experienced physical death for us and spiritual death for us.
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Post by watchman on May 19, 2009 18:50:30 GMT -5
No, I am not buying the though that Jesus was talking about the Father when He told the thief that He would be with Him in paradise.
I am surprised you didn't pull out the comma was in the wrong place argument.
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Post by teresahrc on May 20, 2009 8:51:32 GMT -5
Watchman, don't you think Noah would have been in Abraham's Bosom? Then why were the people who didn't believe Noah the ones that were spoken of as being in "prison"? Are you saying that Noah--who believed God--was in the same place as those who were disobedient? Are you saying that everyone that died before Jesus was in the same place?
Are you also not "buying" the fact that when Philip said to Jesus "show us the Father" and He said, "Don't you know me Philip...anyone who has seen me has seen the Father....I and the Father are One" ?
So, Jesus told Philip, "anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" but that didn't apply when Jesus was on the cross?
I don't care about commas, but I do care about the truth of what really happened.
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Post by teresahrc on May 20, 2009 8:58:43 GMT -5
Watchman, I would like to talk to you also about the word "Today" and the spiritual significance of it. Read: 6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,
7He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
"TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."
8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.
9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. (Hebrews 4) |
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Post by teresahrc on May 20, 2009 11:48:14 GMT -5
Easy enough. If you are being held in ''paradise'' awaiting Salvation then it is a prison even though a very good one. I don't buy that at all. So, according to that theory, Jesus could have told the man on the cross "Today you will be with me in prison" and that would have been the same as "Today you will be with me in paradise". The only other references for "paradise" in the Bible are the following: 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. (2 Corinthians) 7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. (Revelation 2) Here are some references for "prison": (there were 122--all NEGATIVE) 9 The Philistines went up and camped in Judah, spreading out near Lehi. 10 The people of Judah asked, "Why have you come to fight us?"
"We have come to take Samson prisoner," they answered, "to do to him as he did to us." (Judges 15) 10 Some sat in darkness, in utter darkness,
prisoners suffering in iron chains,
11 because they rebelled against God's commands
and despised the plans of the Most High. (Psalm 107) 22 They will be herded together
like prisoners bound in a dungeon;
they will be shut up in prison
and be punished after many days. (Isaiah 24) Now, after comparing those, please tell me, where did Lazarus go when he died, and where did the rich man go? Lazarus went to Abraham's Bosom, but the rich man went to "prison". They are not the same place.22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' (Luke 16) There is a "great chasm" fixed between Abraham and the place of torment, AKA prison. How can they be the same place? |
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Post by teresahrc on May 20, 2009 11:53:00 GMT -5
No, Abraham was not in the "belly of the earth". In my last post, you will read in Luke 16 that the rich man "looked up and saw Abraham far away" (and there was a "great chasm" showing that they were in different places).
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Post by watchman on May 20, 2009 13:41:00 GMT -5
No, Abraham was not in the "belly of the earth". In my last post, you will read in Luke 16 that the rich man "looked up and saw Abraham far away" (and there was a "great chasm" showing that they were in different places). They were two different places but they were both in the belly of the earth. |
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