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Post by Cepha on May 13, 2009 12:47:20 GMT -5
"most" biblical "assumption"? This sounds like "personal interpretation". And how can we assume that he was in A's B? #1 Because he was a believer. #2 The bible does not say he was taken to Heaven. That leaves only one other option ''Abraham's Bosom'' So you've come to this not by an actual biblical statement, but by conjecture? You've deduced this from the scripture according to your personal reasoning, right? Because no where in The Bible does it state what you are implying, correct? So then, this is personal interpretation (not Biblical "text").  |
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Post by watchman on May 13, 2009 12:52:46 GMT -5
#1 Because he was a believer. #2 The bible does not say he was taken to Heaven. That leaves only one other option ''Abraham's Bosom'' So you've come to this not by an actual biblical statement, but by conjecture? You've deduced this from the scripture according to your personal reasoning, right? Because no where in The Bible does it state what you are implying, correct? So then, this is personal interpretation (not Biblical "text"). You keep pushing this personal interpretation, because you , yourself must twist scripture to fit your belief. I simply believe what the scriptures teach. There is no conjecture or personal interpretation needed. Did I deduct this belief from what the Bible says? YES |
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Post by Cepha on May 13, 2009 13:04:37 GMT -5
So you've come to this not by an actual biblical statement, but by conjecture? You've deduced this from the scripture according to your personal reasoning, right? Because no where in The Bible does it state what you are implying, correct? So then, this is personal interpretation (not Biblical "text"). You keep pushing this personal interpretation, because you , yourself must twist scripture to fit your belief. I simply believe what the scriptures teach. There is no conjecture or personal interpretation needed. Did I deduct this belief from what the Bible says? YES If by "pushing" you mean "asking" you for the Chapter and Verse that states what you say, then yes. I am pushing you because I haven't seen any Chapter and Verse literally state what you propose. If it's there, then you should be able to produce the exact Chapter and Verse (not a complete chapter and a non-existant verse as you have). All I'm asking you for is where it's stated. And, "deduction" is literally personal interpretation. But, if you provide the scripture verse and chapter, then you can prove what you stated (that Moses was in AB). I'd just like to see the evidence, that's all. Or at least something that says that all pre cross OT saints are in AB. I can reasonably deduce that only 1 person was said to be in AB...and that was Lazarus. Oh wait, that's not "deducement", but actually stated: Luke 16: 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. ;D |
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Post by watchman on May 13, 2009 13:08:54 GMT -5
I gave you the verses, read them.
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Post by Cepha on May 13, 2009 13:10:04 GMT -5
I gave you the verses, read them. No, you quoted the entire chapter 19 of Luke I believe and a verse that doesn't exist in The Christian Bible. |
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Post by Cepha on May 13, 2009 13:12:47 GMT -5
Read Luke 19, read Luke 13:43, read in Peter were it says Jesus went to preach to those that were in prison. now if you are trying to compare my belief in the O.T. saints going to A.B. to await Messiah to some of your Catholic extra biblical beliefs, it just wont work. The teaching of Abraham's bosom is completely biblical. Are these the verses you are claiming state that all pre cross OT believers are in AB? Or that Moses was in AB? Again, there is no Luke 13:43. Luke 13 only goes up to 35. At least in The Christian Bible. What Bible version were you referring me to? And Chapter 19 of Luke is too broad. Too many topics being discussed at once. What verse exactly from Luke 19? |
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Post by watchman on May 13, 2009 13:22:05 GMT -5
I gave you the verses, read them. No, you quoted the entire chapter 19 of Luke I believe and a verse that doesn't exist in The Christian Bible. Believe as you wish  |
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Post by watchman on May 13, 2009 13:32:19 GMT -5
Read Luke 19, read Luke 13:43, read in Peter were it says Jesus went to preach to those that were in prison. now if you are trying to compare my belief in the O.T. saints going to A.B. to await Messiah to some of your Catholic extra biblical beliefs, it just wont work. The teaching of Abraham's bosom is completely biblical. Are these the verses you are claiming state that all pre cross OT believers are in AB? Or that Moses was in AB? Again, there is no Luke 13:43. Luke 13 only goes up to 35. At least in The Christian Bible. What Bible version were you referring me to? And Chapter 19 of Luke is too broad. Too many topics being discussed at once. What verse exactly from Luke 19? Luke 19 shows that is were the righteous went before the Cross, Luke 23:43 combined with the reference in Peter shows that it is were Jesus went for the 3 days He was dead, also the reference in Matthew chapter 12 that says just like Jonah was in the belly of the whale, so will Jesus be in the belly of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights. Do you not understand how to stusdy scripture to come up with sound biblical doctrine?
2nd Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. |
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Post by Cepha on May 14, 2009 10:11:36 GMT -5
No, you quoted the entire chapter 19 of Luke I believe and a verse that doesn't exist in The Christian Bible. Believe as you wish Believe it? I proved it. The quote you listed doesn't exist. Or, you could answer my question and tell me what bible version you're using that has Luke 13:43 in it(because that verse cannot be found in any Christian Bible). |
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Post by Cepha on May 14, 2009 10:17:52 GMT -5
Luke 19 shows that is were the righteous went before the Cross, Where? The entire chapter? And what does that have to do with AB? What do you mean "combined with"? You mean, like what Satan tried to do with Jesus in the desert when he was "combining" scriptures that weren't related to each other to create false beliefs? What scripture in Peter are you talking about? That's not quoting the chapter and verse, that's referring to one of several books in Peter's name. Which one is it? How can you prove your point if you don't quote the chapter and verse in Peter? That's being kind of vague, don't you think? Do you not understand how to stusdy scripture to come up with sound biblical doctrine? It's hard to study it when you are giving false verses that don't exist in the first place, then referring one scripture you are "combining" with another, yet don't list the 2nd verse you are supposedly combining it with. How can we examine your evidence if you are misrepresenting the chapter and verse numbers in one example and then not even listing the chapter and verse of Peter in your 2nd example? No reasonable person could study that. Now, "rightly" divide the scriptures and list them properly so we can examine your so called evidence.  (Oh, also please post the actual scripture when you post the chapter and verse. If you can take the time to post Timothy to try to correct someone, you can certainly take the same time [as we do with you] to post the scripture with the chapter and verse you try to submit as evidence of your argument.) |
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Post by watchman on May 14, 2009 10:30:09 GMT -5
Believe as you wish Believe it? I proved it. The quote you listed doesn't exist. Or, you could answer my question and tell me what bible version you're using that has Luke 13:43 in it(because that verse cannot be found in any Christian Bible). You prove nothing, the biblical doctrine is that Jesus went to paradise when He dies ''Abraham's Bosom'' and preached to those that were imprisoned there. For you to claim otherwise shows that you have been studying the ''catachism'' to long and the Bible not long enough. |
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Post by Cepha on May 14, 2009 10:40:55 GMT -5
Believe it? I proved it. The quote you listed doesn't exist. Or, you could answer my question and tell me what bible version you're using that has Luke 13:43 in it(because that verse cannot be found in any Christian Bible). You prove nothing, the biblical doctrine is that Jesus went to paradise when He dies ''Abraham's Bosom'' and preached to those that were imprisoned there. For you to claim otherwise shows that you have been studying the ''catachism'' to long and the Bible not long enough. I proved that the verse that you gave was a false non-existant verse. There was never any Luke 13:43 in The Bible. Jesus went to AB too? Where does it say that? As for me studying The Catechism, at least The Catechism actually lists correct Biblical scriptures for one to be able to look up (instead of just giving book names and false verses that don't exist). ;D |
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Post by watchman on May 14, 2009 10:57:05 GMT -5
Luke 19 shows that is were the righteous went before the Cross, Where? The entire chapter? And what does that have to do with AB? What do you mean "combined with"? You mean, like what Satan tried to do with Jesus in the desert when he was "combining" scriptures that weren't related to each other to create false beliefs? What scripture in Peter are you talking about? That's not quoting the chapter and verse, that's referring to one of several books in Peter's name. Which one is it? How can you prove your point if you don't quote the chapter and verse in Peter? That's being kind of vague, don't you think? Do you not understand how to stusdy scripture to come up with sound biblical doctrine? It's hard to study it when you are giving false verses that don't exist in the first place, then referring one scripture you are "combining" with another, yet don't list the 2nd verse you are supposedly combining it with. How can we examine your evidence if you are misrepresenting the chapter and verse numbers in one example and then not even listing the chapter and verse of Peter in your 2nd example? No reasonable person could study that. Now, "rightly" divide the scriptures and list them properly so we can examine your so called evidence. (Oh, also please post the actual scripture when you post the chapter and verse. If you can take the time to post Timothy to try to correct someone, you can certainly take the same time [as we do with you] to post the scripture with the chapter and verse you try to submit as evidence of your argument.) You should now the verses, I thought you knew scripture. I really do not have the time or the patience to hold your hand explaining every biblical truth to you, ask the Holy Spirit to reveal it to you. I will quote the scripture , then you do with them as you will. Luke 16
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
1stPeter 3
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.The O.T. saints that believed in the coming Messiah went to A.B. when Jesus died He went to them, they receive His forgivness just as we do today, and they were able then to leave A.B. and go to Heaven. Take or leave, I really do not care |
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Post by Cepha on May 14, 2009 11:08:53 GMT -5
You should now the verses, I thought you knew scripture. No. I'm like Paul...a complete ignoramous. ;D Well, all you had to do was just post the scripture. If what you say is there, I should be able to read it for myself. Me? I have all the time and patience in the world to get to the truth. ;D All that states is that only ONE MAN was ever said to have been in AB...Lazarus. You just proved what I said to be true. No where there is any other person mentioned as being in AB. But the difference is that Jesus said He was going to be in Heaven (His Kingdom) when He was on The Cross, right? Are you calling AB Heaven? How does AB and Heaven intertwine? [/b] [/quote] Ahhh...what's " prison" there? Is " prison" AB to you? If not, then what/where is prison? (See? I knew if I kept you talking and engaging long enough without you losing your cool, I'd get you here!) And? What is this supposed to mean? AB? How do you tie AB with the heart of the earth? Or is it someplace else? Scripture to prove what you just wrote please? Which OT saints? I'll take it, if you can prove it and answer those questions. |
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Post by Cepha on May 14, 2009 11:10:02 GMT -5
Jesus went to AB too?
Where does it say that?
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Post by Cepha on May 14, 2009 11:12:38 GMT -5
AB Believers...is this true?
The Bosom of Abraham
In the Holy Bible, the expression "the Bosom of Abraham" is found only in two verses of St. Luke's Gospel (16:22-23). It occurs in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus the imagery of which is plainly drawn from the popular representations of the unseen world of the dead which were current in Our Lord's time.
According to the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke 16:22; in the Greek 16:23).
A local discrimination, however, existed among them, according to their deeds during their mortal life. In the unseen world of the dead the souls of the righteous occupied an abode or compartment of their own which was distinctly separated by a wall or a chasm from the abode or compartment to which the souls of the wicked were consigned.
The latter was a place of torments usually spoken of as Gehenna (cf. Matthew 5:29, 30; 18:9; Mark 9:42 sqq. in the Latin Vulgate) -- the other, a place of bliss and security known under the names of "Paradise" (cf. Luke 23:43) and "the Bosom of Abraham" (Luke 16:22-23). And it is in harmony with these Jewish conceptions that Our Lord pictured the terrible fate of the selfish Rich Man, and on the contrary, the glorious reward of the patient Lazarus.
In the next life Dives found himself in Gehenna, condemned to the most excruciating torments, whereas Lazarus was carried by the angels into "the Bosom of Abraham", where the righteous dead shared in the repose and felicity of Abraham "the father of the faithful". But while commentators generally agree upon the meaning of the figurative expression "the Bosom of Abraham", as designating the blissful abode of the righteous souls after death, they are at variance with regard to the manner in which the phrase itself originated.
Up to the time of Maldonatus (A.D. 1583), its origin was traced back to the universal custom of parents to take up into their arms, or place upon their knees, their children when they are fatigued, or return home, and to make them rest by their side during the night (cf. 2 Samuel 12:2; 1 Kings 3:20; 17:19; Luke 11:7 sqq.), thus causing them to enjoy rest and security in the bosom of a loving parent.
After the same manner was Abraham supposed to act towards his children after the fatigues and troubles of the present life, hence the metaphorical expression "to be in Abraham's Bosom" as meaning to be in repose and happiness with him. But according to Maldonatus (In Lucam, xvi, 22), whose theory has since been accepted by many scholars, the metaphor "to be in Abraham's Bosom" is derived from the custom of reclining on couches at table which prevailed among the Jews during and before the time of Christ.
As at a feast each guest leaned on his left elbow so as to leave his right arm at liberty, and as two or more lay on the same couch, the head of one man was near the breast of the man who lay behind, and he was therefore said "to lie in the bosom" of the other. It was also considered by the Jews of old a mark of special honour and favour for one to be allowed to lie in the bosom of the master of the feast (cf. John 13:23).
And it is by this illustration that they pictured the next world. They conceived of the reward of the righteous dead as a sharing in a banquet given by Abraham, "the father of the faithful" (cf. Matthew 8:11 sqq.), and of the highest form of that reward as lying in "Abraham's Bosom".
Since the coming of Our Lord, "the Bosom of Abraham" gradually ceased to designate a place of imperfect happiness, and it has become synonymous with Heaven itself.
In their writings the Fathers of the Church mean by that expression sometimes the abode of the righteous dead before they were admitted to the Beatific Vision after the death of the Saviour, sometimes Heaven, into which the just of the New Law are immediately introduced upon their demise. When in her liturgy the Church solemnly prays that the angels may carry the soul of one of her departed children to "Abraham's Bosom", she employs the expression to designate Heaven and its endless bliss in company with the faithful of both Testaments, and in particular with Abraham, the father of them all.
This passage of the expression "the Bosom of Abraham" from an imperfect and limited sense to one higher and fuller is a most natural one, and is in full harmony with the general character of the New Testament dispensation as a complement and fulfilment of the Old Testament revelation.
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Post by Cepha on May 14, 2009 11:13:10 GMT -5
Oh, and is there a verse in scripture that says literally that Moses was in "the Bosom of Abraham" or that all pre cross saints were there?
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Post by Cepha on May 14, 2009 11:15:32 GMT -5
Thos of you who believe in "the Bosom of Abraham", is this true?
Scripture
A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.
Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.
Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.
Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.
2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.
Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.
1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.
Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.
Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.
Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).
Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.
Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.
2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.
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Post by teresahrc on May 14, 2009 12:57:45 GMT -5
  I hope I am misunderstanding this. Are you saying that Jesus died on the cross, went to paradise, and then "Abraham's Bosom" (which you are calling the "prison") as if they are the same thing? Or are you saying Jesus went to two separate places? Jesus did not ascend to the Father until after His death and resurrection. 18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago... (1 Peter 3) He did NOT go to "Paradise" at the moment of His death, nor for the 3 days of His death. He did not go to Paradise until His ascension into Heaven 40 days after His resurrection. So why did He tell the man on the cross, "Today" you will be with me in Paradise? It's not that hard to figure out. Jesus said "I and the Father are One" and also, in Hebrews, it is explained that with God, there is only one day, and that is "Today". There is only one eternal day, and that is the Eternal Sabbath rest of God. Where in the Bible was "Abraham's Bosom" EVER spoken of as a "prison" ? Yikes. teresa
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Post by teresahrc on May 14, 2009 13:05:18 GMT -5
Jesus preached to those who DISOBEYED long ago. If you read the rest of 1 Peter, it makes more sense
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
So this is distinguishing those that disobeyed from those that obeyed(Noah and his family).
Jesus didn't go and preach to those who obeyed (AKA the Old Testament Saints--Abraham, Isaac and Jacob etc) he went and preached to the sinners who were "in the belly of the earth".
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