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Post by watchman on May 9, 2009 15:36:53 GMT -5
Yes, I have never denied it, it is where the O.T. saints went to await the Messiah and the cleansing of their sins so that they could get into Heaven. It was called Abraham's bosom'' or paradise. We have had this discussion before. Purgatory.  Good try but no cigar it was called Abraham's Bosom and it is no longer in use. |
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Post by teresahrc on May 9, 2009 16:40:55 GMT -5
Watchman, I'm really hyper right now and your post made me laugh. I just pictured some big place sort of off to the side of the "gates" of heaven, with a neon sign that says "Abraham's Bosom" and then a big piece of plywood nailed over the door saying "Out of business" or something.
hehe
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Post by watchman on May 9, 2009 21:12:29 GMT -5
Watchman, I'm really hyper right now and your post made me laugh. I just pictured some big place sort of off to the side of the "gates" of heaven, with a neon sign that says "Abraham's Bosom" and then a big piece of plywood nailed over the door saying "Out of business" or something. hehe Yes that is a funny thought, but in reality it off to the side of Hell, not Heaven. (According to Luke 16) |
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Post by Cepha on May 12, 2009 11:11:19 GMT -5
Purgatory. Good try but no cigar it was called Abraham's Bosom and it is no longer in use. How do you know that it's no longer in use? |
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Post by Cepha on May 12, 2009 11:39:40 GMT -5
Here's why I see your scenario as impossible...the body belonged to God. God created it. The Devil couldn't demand anything that belonged to God. True, but doesn't Scriptures say the Devil is the god of this world? 2Corinthians 4:4 "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. " He is also called Prince of this world (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11) and Prince of the power of the air (Ephesians 2:2) God has given Satan some authority and dominion on this world only for a short time (and certainty with limitation). It will make perfect sense for Satan to argue that Moses' Body was his because he will argue that he is "lord of matter". Andreas of Caesarea relates a vision of Blessed Anthony that describes this (Catena, as related in Ancient Christian Commentary: XI). Also we are talking about the Devil here. Would he really care what God thinks?  Remember when Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene? His body was missing but His Spirit was a live. Therefore, His body was elsewhere. Nevertheless, even He, Jesus, had to go to Heaven "first" before He got His body back. Now, Moses could've been in this state as well...spiritually alive, but bodyless. However, supposedly, we are all supposed to be reconciled to our physical bodies in Heaven, right? So maybe, he (Moses) was in that "in between stage" as was Jesus Christ.  Yes, that is possible, but I just believe he was resurrected some point after his death, and this story of Saint Jude happened some time after his resurrection. I know Saint Clement of Alexandria believed this (that he was assumed into heaven at some point, cf. Adumbrations, as given in the Ancient Christian Commentary: XI), not a dogmatic teaching in the Church but certainty a pious opinion. In IC.XC, Ramon LOL! Dude, it doesn't matter "how" one slices it up or what The Devil thinks...this is God's world! LOL! He has no authority other than that which God allows him and even that is allowed ONLY to serve God's purpose. If God want's so, He could abolish Hell and literally extinguish Satan into nothingness. The only reason he's even allowed to exist is to serve God by his disobedience. |
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Post by watchman on May 12, 2009 12:24:45 GMT -5
Good try but no cigar it was called Abraham's Bosom and it is no longer in use. How do you know that it's no longer in use? Because it is were the O.T. saints went before Jesus' death and resurrection it serve no purpose for New Covenant, post cross believers. |
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Post by Cepha on May 12, 2009 12:38:33 GMT -5
How do you know that it's no longer in use? Because it is were the O.T. saints went before Jesus' death and resurrection it serve no purpose for New Covenant, post cross believers. No, the OT Saints were in their "graves" before Jesus' death on the cross and they got up at that moment (they didn't have to wait until His own ressurection proving that it was Jesus' death that saved them, not His ressurection). (Matthew 27) Where does the Bible say that the OT Saints went to Abraham's Bossom? Chapter? Verse? That sounds pretty OSAS to my ears!  |
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Post by teresahrc on May 12, 2009 14:33:43 GMT -5
Watchman, what do you believe happens to a Christian as soon as they die?
And "where" did Moses and Elijah come from when they appeared with Christ when He was transfigured?
teresa
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Post by Cepha on May 12, 2009 14:42:24 GMT -5
Watchman, what do you believe happens to a Christian as soon as they die? And "where" did Moses and Elijah come from when they appeared with Christ when He was transfigured? teresa Yeah...still waiting on that one! LOL! |
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Post by watchman on May 12, 2009 20:46:55 GMT -5
That sounds pretty OSAS to my ears! Your ears make you hear crazy things. The emptying of Abraham's Bosom has nothing to do with OSAS? |
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Post by watchman on May 12, 2009 20:47:53 GMT -5
Watchman, what do you believe happens to a Christian as soon as they die? And "where" did Moses and Elijah come from when they appeared with Christ when He was transfigured? teresa I believe they go straight to Heaven. |
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Post by Cepha on May 13, 2009 9:15:27 GMT -5
That sounds pretty OSAS to my ears! Your ears make you hear crazy things. The emptying of Abraham's Bosom has nothing to do with OSAS? Ok, but what scriptural proof do you have that Moses was in A.B.'s (Abraham's Bosom)? Is it just pure conjecture? Personal theory? What? |
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Post by Cepha on May 13, 2009 9:17:59 GMT -5
Watchman, what do you believe happens to a Christian as soon as they die? And "where" did Moses and Elijah come from when they appeared with Christ when He was transfigured? teresa I believe they go straight to Heaven. Ok, but..." And "where" did Moses and Elijah come from when they appeared with Christ when He was transfigured?"  |
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Post by watchman on May 13, 2009 12:24:22 GMT -5
Your ears make you hear crazy things. The emptying of Abraham's Bosom has nothing to do with OSAS? Ok, but what scriptural proof do you have that Moses was in A.B.'s (Abraham's Bosom)? Is it just pure conjecture? Personal theory? What? Well the bible does not say what happen to Moses, however all pre cross saints went to Abraham's Bosom. So unless you have proof to the contrary, that is where we should assume he was. |
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Post by watchman on May 13, 2009 12:26:39 GMT -5
I believe they go straight to Heaven. Ok, but..." And "where" did Moses and Elijah come from when they appeared with Christ when He was transfigured?" The Bible tells us Elijah was taken to Heaven so we could assume he came from Heaven, as for Moses the Bible does not mention, so the most biblical assumption we can make is that he came from Abraham's Bosom. Now if you believe that Moses was in Heaven with Elijah, I guess it is possible, but cannot be proven biblically. |
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Post by Cepha on May 13, 2009 12:30:34 GMT -5
Well the bible does not say what happen to Moses, however all pre cross saints went to Abraham's Bosom. So unless you have proof to the contrary, that is where we should assume he was. Where does the Bible state that ; " all pre cross saints went to Abraham's Bosom."? |
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Post by Cepha on May 13, 2009 12:32:17 GMT -5
Ok, but..." And "where" did Moses and Elijah come from when they appeared with Christ when He was transfigured?" The Bible tells us Elijah was taken to Heaven so we could assume he came from Heaven, as for Moses the Bible does not mention, so the most biblical assumption we can make is that he came from Abraham's Bosom. Now if you believe that Moses was in Heaven with Elijah, I guess it is possible, but cannot be proven biblically. "most" biblical "assumption"? This sounds like "personal interpretation". And how can we assume that he was in A's B? |
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Post by watchman on May 13, 2009 12:34:23 GMT -5
Well the bible does not say what happen to Moses, however all pre cross saints went to Abraham's Bosom. So unless you have proof to the contrary, that is where we should assume he was. Where does the Bible state that ; " all pre cross saints went to Abraham's Bosom."? Read Luke 19, read Luke 13:43, read in Peter were it says Jesus went to preach to those that were in prison. now if you are trying to compare my belief in the O.T. saints going to A.B. to await Messiah to some of your Catholic extra biblical beliefs, it just wont work. The teaching of Abraham's bosom is completely biblical. |
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Post by watchman on May 13, 2009 12:38:06 GMT -5
The Bible tells us Elijah was taken to Heaven so we could assume he came from Heaven, as for Moses the Bible does not mention, so the most biblical assumption we can make is that he came from Abraham's Bosom. Now if you believe that Moses was in Heaven with Elijah, I guess it is possible, but cannot be proven biblically. "most" biblical "assumption"? This sounds like "personal interpretation". And how can we assume that he was in A's B? #1 Because he was a believer. #2 The bible does not say he was taken to Heaven. That leaves only one other option ''Abraham's Bosom'' |
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Post by Cepha on May 13, 2009 12:41:12 GMT -5
Where does the Bible state that ; " all pre cross saints went to Abraham's Bosom."? Read Luke 19, read Luke 13:43, read in Peter were it says Jesus went to preach to those that were in prison. now if you are trying to compare my belief in the O.T. saints going to A.B. to await Messiah to some of your Catholic extra biblical beliefs, it just wont work. The teaching of Abraham's bosom is completely biblical. Could you please post the scripture? That's how it's generally done here and throughout most forums. When you quote something, you post the scripture as well. From what I see, no such Luke 13:42 exists (this is why you are supposed to post the scripture to prove it). Luke 19? The entire chapter is on A'sB? I see so many different topics there. Could you please be more specific and show me where it literally states what you propose? Chapter? Verse? If it's completely "biblical" as you say, it should be easy for you to point it out with Chapter AND Verse. |
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